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  1. #1661
    Overhaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewtheAmericanDude View Post
    @Overhaul I mean I agree Whitebeard was stronger. I do think the handicaps like landing a magma punch were evened out when Whitebeard landed a sneak strike in rage later. Then Akainu retaliated, and then WB did and finished the job. So I think they each landed 2 good hits overall but that's all they need with their high offensive power. Akainu lost the battle but I think his ability to retaliate with a mortal wound in spite of being sneak attacked by an enraged WB shows he was able to endure the raw end as well. If the vivre card data is to be believed, the magu magu no mi has the highest offensive power of any df.

    So I feel as though that in spite of potential gaps of strength, Akainu is never entirely out of the running with top tiers since one or two good hits can end everything.

    I suppose I should actually relate this to tier discussion. I kinda don't entirely see the point of a summit tier, I think a lot of top tiers will show their stuff later. But I suppose some have markedly better performances so far. I maintain that Akainu will come back stronger so WB a tier above in Summit for now could make sense narratively until then if I had to guess.

    I agree with your Doflamingo and Jack assessments as well.
    Yes, Akainu dealt a mortal wound to Whitebeard. But we have to take into account that Whitebeard had already taken many mortal wounds. He clearly did not intend to live past that war, and had no real concern for his safety any more.

    It's not meant to disregard Akainu's strength, but imo it does put Whitebeard's endurance in a whole other level.

    As for "one or two good hits can end everything". Akainu and Aokiji fought for 10 days. That's how long their fight lasted to settle things. Obviously, murderous intentions may have not been part of their battle, but it wasn't over in one or two good hits. Aokiji vs Jozu was over in one or two good hits. And they're one tier apart.
    Quote Originally Posted by G O A T View Post
    So once again, a top tier one-shotting a non-top tier granted him that spot, okay, thanks for making that clear.



    It wasn't implied he was strong due to his armada. His armada helped but once again he fought Garp and Sengoku, and yes he lost, anyone is losing to young Garp and Sengoku.
    If you do not agree, voice your argument. I cannot judge correctly anyone's opinion through shades of sarcasm.

    Luffy is a Top Tier.
    However, it wasn't only because Kaido one shotted Luffy. It was Luffy in one of his strongest form. Boundman was only affected by other Top Tiers in battle, like Cracker and Katakuri. Yet Kaido took all of those attacks, something those Top Tiers weren't unfazed by, and then with one swing he dropped Luffy like a fly.

    It was if like Marco hit Kizaru with a barrage of attacks, and then Kizaru dropped him with one laser shot.
    Or if Jozu attacked Aokiji and he was unfazed (not bleeding), and then effortlessly put him down.

    This is even more impressive because Kaido was never seen attempting to defend himself, like Big Mom did against Luffy's G4 Kong Gun.

    Furthermore, we just saw a Upper Top fight a (probable) Top Tier, Big Mom vs Queen, and one of Big Mom's attacks did not put Queen in the same state as Luffy was vs Kaido. Of course, Big Mom didn't have her memories and probably didn't use her full power, and Queen's attack also didn't physically harm Big Mom (apparently, just shook her brain a bit), but still. That's a good display when Kaido takes a barrage of Luffy's strongest attacks and comes off unscathed and then drops him like nothing happened.
    Think you know about powerscaling?
    Then come to the Tier List Thread and prove it!!




  2. #1662
    FireAngeL's Avatar
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    Oden to Upper-Top???

  3. #1663
    Joseph Joestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireAngeL View Post
    Oden to Upper-Top???
    We probably can't officially rank him but I'd be surprised if he ended up lower than that

    Spoiler!

  4. #1664
    Senritsu no Tatsumaki! akatsukigogeta's Avatar
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    Character Name: Silvers Rayleigh "Dark King"
    Previous Tier: Top Tier
    Suggested Tier: Upper-Top Tier
    Reason:
    i know alot of people must have been arguing about this already, but IMHO it is nonsensical to put rayleigh in the same tier as the yonko commanders and luffy.

    First off: i believe luffy is one of the strongest people in top tier after defeating katakuri. With that being said, he is nowhere near rayleighs level. Even if this scene is not manga canon, the anime only scene of luffys training during the katakuri fight show rayleigh stomping g4. Even if its anime only it shows what the show envisions rayleigh to be. It's also not an unbelieveable event considering how strong he is.

    Second, rayleigh was equally fighting with kizaru and admiral. No body in that tier is going toe to toe with an admiral like kizaru aokiji and akainu. i mean sabo didnt really do jack shit to fujitora. in a fight between the Wb commanders and rayleigh its going to be the same like their fights against the admirals. They may get a couple of good hits in, but as soon as they let their guard down theyll be taken out in one shot.

    Third: Rayleigh can casually use the second level of armanent haki, That means he fully mastered it. That alone puts him on a level above luffy. Im not trying to get into hypotheticals, but for all we know he knows the future seeing observation haki too and just didnt have enough time to teach luffy. Luffy had to advnace his haki through fights to get to that level.

    Fourth, in order for characters to be in the same tier they must be in the same realm of power. With that being said a fight between two people in the same tier should at the very least be a high diff fight. No one ine that tier is high diffing rayleigh if they would be extreme diffing in a fight with luffy and i think everyone in that list would probably lose or extreme diff luffy. Rayleigh would most likely mid diff most of them like the admirals would. In any case rayleigh is equal to admirals so should be in the same tier as them. Luffy has not got on his masters level yet. Luffy is rightfully yonko top commander level but rayleigh is not that low.
    @BlackLeg
    Last edited by akatsukigogeta; Aug 24th '19 at 12:23 PM.

  5. #1665
    Senior Member Alibaba Saluja's Avatar
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    It literally is insulting to put Rayleigh at the same tier as Doflamingo.

  6. #1666
    AppleCider's Avatar
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    @Overhaul do you agree Big Mom should be in Summit Tier with Kaido? Both low-diffed Top Commander level fighters and they're fighting to a near draw right now

    A nerfed, amnesiac Big Mom defeated Queen in 2 hits then proceeded to smash Luffy and Hyogoro into a wall despite Luffy trying to block using advanced CoA. Then when Big Mom got her memories back, Queen said she was in a completely different level

  7. #1667
    看到你,当我看到你 Outlaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AppleCider View Post
    @Overhaul do you agree Big Mom should be in Summit Tier with Kaido? Both low-diffed Top Commander level fighters and they're fighting to a near draw right now

    A nerfed, amnesiac Big Mom defeated Queen in 2 hits then proceeded to smash Luffy and Hyogoro into a wall despite Luffy trying to block using advanced CoA. Then when Big Mom got her memories back, Queen said she was in a completely different level
    Yes I agree with u.
    Spoiler!



  8. #1668
    Overhaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akatsukigogeta View Post
    Character Name: Silvers Rayleigh "Dark King"
    Previous Tier: Top Tier
    Suggested Tier: Upper-Top Tier
    Reason:
    i know alot of people must have been arguing about this already, but IMHO it is nonsensical to put rayleigh in the same tier as the yonko commanders and luffy.

    First off: i believe luffy is one of the strongest people in top tier after defeating katakuri. With that being said, he is nowhere near rayleighs level. Even if this scene is not manga canon, the anime only scene of luffys training during the katakuri fight show rayleigh stomping g4. Even if its anime only it shows what the show envisions rayleigh to be. It's also not an unbelieveable event considering how strong he is.
    Non cannon so it's not an acceptable argument. Anime shows Luffy defeating a previous Admiral and someone who could go toe to toe with Whitebeard and Roger, so should we take that into account as well, or should we obviously consider it like it is, non canon?
    Second, rayleigh was equally fighting with kizaru and admiral. No body in that tier is going toe to toe with an admiral like kizaru aokiji and akainu. i mean sabo didnt really do jack shit to fujitora. in a fight between the Wb commanders and rayleigh its going to be the same like their fights against the admirals. They may get a couple of good hits in, but as soon as they let their guard down theyll be taken out in one shot.
    I beg to differ. Marco was also shown to be able to fight an admiral. Vista too. Jozu was fighting Aokiji before getting distracted and being put down. Sabo, despite Issho not going all out, also fought him and the same could be said for Luffy.

    Rayleigh interrupted a blow that was not for him, so Kizaru did not know he was coming. And then he slashed Kizaru as he was still focused on the Straw Hats, as he was performing an ability to go after them, not while he was focused on fighting Rayleigh.
    Then, we see Rayleigh commenting on how he is old to fight an Admiral and can see that he is getting exhausted and can't go on for longer. While, on the other hand, we see Admirals that fight for 10 days.
    Third: Rayleigh can casually use the second level of armanent haki, That means he fully mastered it. That alone puts him on a level above luffy. Im not trying to get into hypotheticals, but for all we know he knows the future seeing observation haki too and just didnt have enough time to teach luffy. Luffy had to advnace his haki through fights to get to that level.
    I don't see how this proves that Rayleigh > Luffy, or that he is one tier above.

    Katakuri is able to use Awakening and has a strong Armament than Luffy, as we saw in their fight.
    Cracker was also commended for having a stronger Armament than Luffy, yet no one is arguing Cracker should be one tier above.
    Doflamingo is able to use Awakening, yet another ability superior than that of Luffy's DF mastery, yet is that proof Doflamingo stands above?
    Enel and the Kuja pirates were all able to use one type of Haki when Luffy did not have one. Was this proof of their superiority over Luffy?

    And even in the jail, Hyogoro is able to use the "2nd level of armament" as it's being called while Luffy isn't ... will you argue Hyogoro is stronger than Luffy?

    Fourth, in order for characters to be in the same tier they must be in the same realm of power. With that being said a fight between two people in the same tier should at the very least be a high diff fight. No one ine that tier is high diffing rayleigh if they would be extreme diffing in a fight with luffy and i think everyone in that list would probably lose or extreme diff luffy. Rayleigh would most likely mid diff most of them like the admirals would. In any case rayleigh is equal to admirals so should be in the same tier as them. Luffy has not got on his masters level yet. Luffy is rightfully yonko top commander level but rayleigh is not that low.
    @BlackLeg
    Yeah. No.

    Small clash with an Admiral, stopped one of his attacks while it was not directed at him and sliced his cheek while Kizaru was trying to chase the Straw Hats aka not fighting Rayleigh directly.
    Because of that, Kizaru realised that every time he'd try to go after the Straw Hats, Rayleigh would attempt to stop him, and like a wounded and weakened Whitebeard did, Kizaru focused on Rayleigh.

    However, Rayleigh stated he would not be able to help the Straw Hats further as he was busy stopping the Admiral from going after them, showing that he was getting tired and old and that would be too much for him. While someone in the same level of an Admiral fight for 10 days (Aokiji vs Akainu), or even someone on the same level can do it for days too, Rayleigh was already getting tired from a brief duelling... how does this prove that Rayleigh should be on the same level as an Admiral, when it clearly shows he can't keep up with one for long?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alibaba Saluja View Post
    It literally is insulting to put Rayleigh at the same tier as Doflamingo.
    Why do you say that?

    Rayleigh deflected an attack from Kizaru and striked back. They duelled for a bit before stopping, Rayleigh recognising that he's too old and out of shape to fight an Admiral for longer.

    Doflamingo also deflected an attack from an admiral, Issho, and someone who was on similar level to him also duelled Issho for a while. 2 persons, actually. Sabo and Luffy.

    While it is clear that not everybody on top tier is at the same level of strength, Katakuri, Marco and Luffy clearly being some of the strongest, it is also a big no no to demote Doflamingo to Lower Top and put him on the same level as Law, whom he trashed the floor with, or to demote Law to Upper High and have him as an equal to Vergo.

    So unless we create subtiers to handle this small disparities in strength, who has been done before but get increasingly harder as we go down the tier list and even feel very unnaccurate for some characters, is it that much of a big deal to have someone who clearly gave Luffy a High Diff fight on the same tier as him?

    Even in that tier, between Cracker and Katakuri, there's a big difference in their skillset. Cracker being more adept at blocking attacks than enduring them, and Katakuri being more adept at dodging and enduring them. Both were able to damage G4, but Doflamingo showed a much better endurance than Cracker and a good blocking ability with Awakening, possibly as good as Katakuri's or Cracker's, even being able to push back G4 Luffy with it. Obviously the 3 fighters have different skillsets and strengths, but could we be sure who would win in a fight between Cracker and Doflamingo?
    Quote Originally Posted by AppleCider View Post
    @Overhaul do you agree Big Mom should be in Summit Tier with Kaido? Both low-diffed Top Commander level fighters and they're fighting to a near draw right now

    A nerfed, amnesiac Big Mom defeated Queen in 2 hits then proceeded to smash Luffy and Hyogoro into a wall despite Luffy trying to block using advanced CoA. Then when Big Mom got her memories back, Queen said she was in a completely different level
    Yes.
    Think you know about powerscaling?
    Then come to the Tier List Thread and prove it!!




  9. #1669
    Senritsu no Tatsumaki! akatsukigogeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    Non cannon so it's not an acceptable argument. Anime shows Luffy defeating a previous Admiral and someone who could go toe to toe with Whitebeard and Roger, so should we take that into account as well, or should we obviously consider it like it is, non canon?
    i already known its non canon, but when it comes to anime like one piece there are 2 types of non canon. The nonsensical type that contradicts previous feats and the type that gets added in by the studio in addition to the story. I believe that scene falls under the latter and shouldnt simply be disregarded. if anything it shows what the animation studio and by extension oda who approves of said studio giving the fans a little more insight on what rayleigh is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    I beg to differ. Marco was also shown to be able to fight an admiral. Vista too. Jozu was fighting Aokiji before getting distracted and being put down. Sabo, despite Issho not going all out, also fought him and the same could be said for Luffy.
    Except rayleighs clashes with the admirals and marco, jozu, sabo and luffy are two entirely different kind of fights. Just because they faced an admiral does not mean they can go toe-to-toe. Notice how no one said luffy and sabo are on rayleighs level in the dressrosa arc? Why? because they simply survived an admiral. None of their attack were real threats. The most any of those people did to an admiral was making aokijis bleed a little from his mouth. Marcos attacks did nothing to kizaru, jozu got fodderized as soon as he looked away, sabo did nothing, and luffy got blown away. Kizaru was absolutely occupied with rayleigh in their sword battle showing that hes not someone that kizaruy can look away from. I mean look at akainu vs marco and vista. He was extremely damaged by WB and yet their haki still wasnt good enough to touch him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    Rayleigh interrupted a blow that was not for him, so Kizaru did not know he was coming. And then he slashed Kizaru as he was still focused on the Straw Hats, as he was performing an ability to go after them, not while he was focused on fighting Rayleigh.
    Then, we see Rayleigh commenting on how he is old to fight an Admiral and can see that he is getting exhausted and can't go on for longer. While, on the other hand, we see Admirals that fight for 10 days.
    While rayleigh is not in his prime to be fighting for 10 days straighgt that doesnt take away from his strength. i mean you saying that the other guys are on his level because they were surviving in their fights is like saying luffy is and kaidos tier cuz he made him sober up like no. Rayleigh isnt below any admiral nor is luffy equal to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    I don't see how this proves that Rayleigh > Luffy, or that he is one tier above.

    Katakuri is able to use Awakening and has a strong Armament than Luffy, as we saw in their fight.
    Cracker was also commended for having a stronger Armament than Luffy, yet no one is arguing Cracker should be one tier above.
    Doflamingo is able to use Awakening, yet another ability superior than that of Luffy's DF mastery, yet is that proof Doflamingo stands above?
    Enel and the Kuja pirates were all able to use one type of Haki when Luffy did not have one. Was this proof of their superiority over Luffy?

    And even in the jail, Hyogoro is able to use the "2nd level of armament" as it's being called while Luffy isn't ... will you argue Hyogoro is stronger than Luffy?
    You are taking context out of the equation to make your argument here. In those specific instances such as cracker and katakuri their armamnent haki was just stronger in general it was not a whole other level of power as this new special second level armamnent is supposed to be. ASs for doflamingo him simply knowing Dhis df awakening does mean that he master his fruit powers better than luffy unlocking a higher tier of power with out but his strength as a whole character is not. Zoro is in several tiers above luffy in swordsmanship doesnt mean hes stronger as a whole. furthermore, old man hygoro doesnt know that level he said it himself. He said luffy is trying to learn something far greater than what he was trying to teach luffy (when he broke the collar). My point with this statement in general was that rayleigh didnt struggle to use it he used it casually at the beginning of their training. Whenever we as power scalers see someone peform a feat without trying what does that tell us? Obviously they have way more to show. Feats like this are even more impressive when you learn that what they did like nothing is actually a series feat for anyone else in the story. Luffy is still training to be able to even use it how can he be in the same tier as someone who casually uses that level of strength. Here's an analogy to better explain my point of view: So lets say we have to characters, one using his best move can blo0w up a mountain while one using 10% of his power can blow up a mountain. Would you put this characters in the same tier of power? obviously not, this why rayleigh knowing advanced haki is an indicator to him being stronger than luffy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    Yeah. No.

    Small clash with an Admiral, stopped one of his attacks while it was not directed at him and sliced his cheek while Kizaru was trying to chase the Straw Hats aka not fighting Rayleigh directly.
    Because of that, Kizaru realised that every time he'd try to go after the Straw Hats, Rayleigh would attempt to stop him, and like a wounded and weakened Whitebeard did, Kizaru focused on Rayleigh.

    However, Rayleigh stated he would not be able to help the Straw Hats further as he was busy stopping the Admiral from going after them, showing that he was getting tired and old and that would be too much for him. While someone in the same level of an Admiral fight for 10 days (Aokiji vs Akainu), or even someone on the same level can do it for days too, Rayleigh was already getting tired from a brief duelling... how does this prove that Rayleigh should be on the same level as an Admiral, when it clearly shows he can't keep up with one for long?
    while i'll admit that we dont have much to go on for rayleigh feat wise as we do the admirals his fight at sabody was on another level than say the WB commanders. Kizaru couldnt lose focus either he wasnt just taking his hits for shits and gigglles and than getting up fine like he did with marco. i sincerely doubt losing focus would allow an admiral to one shot rayleigh like they did against the commanders. ITs that poor showing during the war that makes me believe rayleigh is not on that same level. I mean how could anyone think rayleigh is on luffys level already. I could see this argument being made when he actually learns the new haki and confronts kaido but before that as he is now he wouldnt be anywhere close to beating rayleigh. Thats like saying Zoro is now mihawk level cuz he replicated certain feats mihawk did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    Why do you say that?

    Rayleigh deflected an attack from Kizaru and striked back. They duelled for a bit before stopping, Rayleigh recognising that he's too old and out of shape to fight an Admiral for longer.

    Doflamingo also deflected an attack from an admiral, Issho, and someone who was on similar level to him also duelled Issho for a while. 2 persons, actually. Sabo and Luffy.

    While it is clear that not everybody on top tier is at the same level of strength, Katakuri, Marco and Luffy clearly being some of the strongest, it is also a big no no to demote Doflamingo to Lower Top and put him on the same level as Law, whom he trashed the floor with, or to demote Law to Upper High and have him as an equal to Vergo.

    So unless we create subtiers to handle this small disparities in strength, who has been done before but get increasingly harder as we go down the tier list and even feel very unnaccurate for some characters, is it that much of a big deal to have someone who clearly gave Luffy a High Diff fight on the same tier as him?

    Even in that tier, between Cracker and Katakuri, there's a big difference in their skillset. Cracker being more adept at blocking attacks than enduring them, and Katakuri being more adept at dodging and enduring them. Both were able to damage G4, but Doflamingo showed a much better endurance than Cracker and a good blocking ability with Awakening, possibly as good as Katakuri's or Cracker's, even being able to push back G4 Luffy with it. Obviously the 3 fighters have different skillsets and strengths, but could we be sure who would win in a fight between Cracker and Doflamingo?

    Yes.
    I believe its because doflamingo gave base g2 and g3 luffy trouble. He was absolutely dogshit compared to G4 and than lufffy got incredibly stronger during the katakuri fight and still shouldnt be on his masters level yet rayleigh is the same tier as doiflamingo? So rayleigh gets shit stomped by g4 as well? That just seems laughable tbh. If rayleigh is equal to g4 now what was the point of luffy even learning king kong gun or snake man. He would of just high diffed rayleigh and not even have to worry about something else. This is why the anime only scene of rayleigh beating G4 makes sense.
    Last edited by akatsukigogeta; Aug 29th '19 at 11:59 PM.

  10. #1670
    Joseph Joestar's Avatar
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    Bruh Marco has better feats against the admirals than Rayleigh. I'm pretty sure he is the only character to land a hit on all 3 of the original admirals

    Spoiler!

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