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  1. #1671
    Overhaul's Avatar
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    Ooof

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsukigogeta View Post
    i already known its non canon, but when it comes to anime like one piece there are 2 types of non canon. The nonsensical type that contradicts previous feats and the type that gets added in by the studio in addition to the story. I believe that scene falls under the latter and shouldnt simply be disregarded. if anything it shows what the animation studio and by extension oda who approves of said studio giving the fans a little more insight on what rayleigh is.
    I've seen the scene you mentioned. Rayleigh doesn't even defeat Luffy in it tho. It just shows him dodging some G4 attacks and attacking Luffy.

    Except rayleighs clashes with the admirals and marco, jozu, sabo and luffy are two entirely different kind of fights. Just because they faced an admiral does not mean they can go toe-to-toe. Notice how no one said luffy and sabo are on rayleighs level in the dressrosa arc? Why? because they simply survived an admiral. None of their attack were real threats. The most any of those people did to an admiral was making aokijis bleed a little from his mouth. Marcos attacks did nothing to kizaru, jozu got fodderized as soon as he looked away, sabo did nothing, and luffy got blown away. Kizaru was absolutely occupied with rayleigh in their sword battle showing that hes not someone that kizaruy can look away from. I mean look at akainu vs marco and vista. He was extremely damaged by WB and yet their haki still wasnt good enough to touch him.
    You are neglecting that Rayleigh only got the hit in and cut Kizaru's cheek because Kizaru was neglecting him. Just like Jozu made Aokiji bleed because Aokiji wasn't focusing on him. Or Marco and Vista managing to cut and trouble Akainu because Akainu was not giving a fuck about them until they stepped in.

    Aokiji was also occupied by Jozu until Jozu looked away and got frozen. Vista was keeping Mihawk busy, until both decided to part ways and continue another time. That is quite similar to the clash between Rayleigh and Kizaru.

    What we saw from Rayleigh was a one time kind of deal, and was a brief clash where it is known that Rayleigh himself noted that he could stall for just a bit, not for hours or days.

    Akainu and Aokiji fight for days, and you want to put Rayleigh on the same level of the admirals who hold on against each other for days?

    While rayleigh is not in his prime to be fighting for 10 days straighgt that doesnt take away from his strength. i mean you saying that the other guys are on his level because they were surviving in their fights is like saying luffy is and kaidos tier cuz he made him sober up like no. Rayleigh isnt below any admiral nor is luffy equal to him.
    90% of this sentence doesnt even make any sense. Luffy hitting Kaido and getting him serious enough to fight while not doing any damage is not comparable at all to Kizaru vs Rayleigh. Rayleigh got the hit in because Kizaru was not focusing on him. That's the only damage he did to Kizaru.

    You saying Rayleigh should be in the same tier thanks to that is like saying Vista should be on the same tier as Mihawk because of their clash.

    You are taking context out of the equation to make your argument here. In those specific instances such as cracker and katakuri their armamnent haki was just stronger in general it was not a whole other level of power as this new special second level armamnent is supposed to be. ASs for doflamingo him simply knowing Dhis df awakening does mean that he master his fruit powers better than luffy unlocking a higher tier of power with out but his strength as a whole character is not. Zoro is in several tiers above luffy in swordsmanship doesnt mean hes stronger as a whole. furthermore, old man hygoro doesnt know that level he said it himself. He said luffy is trying to learn something far greater than what he was trying to teach luffy (when he broke the collar). My point with this statement in general was that rayleigh didnt struggle to use it he used it casually at the beginning of their training. Whenever we as power scalers see someone peform a feat without trying what does that tell us? Obviously they have way more to show. Feats like this are even more impressive when you learn that what they did like nothing is actually a series feat for anyone else in the story. Luffy is still training to be able to even use it how can he be in the same tier as someone who casually uses that level of strength. Here's an analogy to better explain my point of view: So lets say we have to characters, one using his best move can blo0w up a mountain while one using 10% of his power can blow up a mountain. Would you put this characters in the same tier of power? obviously not, this why rayleigh knowing advanced haki is an indicator to him being stronger than luffy.
    Yes, they were not on a whole other level, but the point still stands. Just because someone has a better weapon than you doesn't mean that someone is stronger than you.

    And you clearly ignored Hyogoro ... oh and btw. Sentomaru had that kind of haki Pre TS. You mean that Sentomaru, just because he had that haki, is stronger than current Luffy?


    while i'll admit that we dont have much to go on for rayleigh feat wise as we do the admirals his fight at sabody was on another level than say the WB commanders. Kizaru couldnt lose focus either he wasnt just taking his hits for shits and gigglles and than getting up fine like he did with marco. i sincerely doubt losing focus would allow an admiral to one shot rayleigh like they did against the commanders. ITs that poor showing during the war that makes me believe rayleigh is not on that same level. I mean how could anyone think rayleigh is on luffys level already. I could see this argument being made when he actually learns the new haki and confronts kaido but before that as he is now he wouldnt be anywhere close to beating rayleigh. Thats like saying Zoro is now mihawk level cuz he replicated certain feats mihawk did.
    Your "Sincerely doubt" is based on your opinion and not on factual evidence. Factual evidence is:
    - Jozu got a hit on Aokiji when Aokiji was not focusing him, then they were kept busy by each other until Jozu got distracted and got frozen
    - Vista and Mihawk sparred with each other until a standstill where they agreed that it would be wise to postpone the fight
    - Rayleigh got a hit on Kizaru when Kizaru was not focusing him, and then they sparred with each other until a standstill, with Rayleigh acknowledging he couldn't let his guard down nor help the Straw Hats as he already had his hands quite full

    See the similarities?

    I believe its because doflamingo gave base g2 and g3 luffy trouble. He was absolutely dogshit compared to G4 and than lufffy got incredibly stronger during the katakuri fight and still shouldnt be on his masters level yet rayleigh is the same tier as doiflamingo? So rayleigh gets shit stomped by g4 as well? That just seems laughable tbh. If rayleigh is equal to g4 now what was the point of luffy even learning king kong gun or snake man. He would of just high diffed rayleigh and not even have to worry about something else. This is why the anime only scene of rayleigh beating G4 makes sense.
    You know Rayleigh said he had nothing else to teach Luffy because he had already taught everything he knew/could, with 1/4 of the time still to go, right? So Rayleigh himself thought Luffy was already strong enough and that he had to figure out and train the rest.
    What of this implies that Rayleigh is much stronger than Luffy? Quite literally ... nothing.

    As for Doflamingo, as it's already been discussed again and again, Doflamingo was a man at death's door after Gamma Knife, with some patch up done by himself, and still fought and outlasted G4. The civilians had to help Luffy gain time and escape from Doflamingo. A guy that proved he could adapt, stall and deflect / block G4 hits with Awakening.

    In a way, similar to Cracker who had to block and wait for the time to strike Luffy once G4 runs out, and Luffy had to run and be helped by Nami and her rain.

    I'm not saying Doflamingo is stronger or exactly equal to Cracker. I'm saying he gave Luffy enough trouble to put him in the same situation as during Cracker's and Katakuri's fight, where he needed help to run and stall and recover. And outlasted G4 and would have defeated Luffy if not for the outside help, while he himself got no help and had gotten a beating already. Does this grant him to be moved to one tier under Luffy and be put in the same level as Law and Zoro? That's nonsensical. We would have to create a new tier in between just for Doflamingo for that to make any sense.
    Think you know about powerscaling?
    Then come to the Tier List Thread and prove it!!




  2. #1672
    Senritsu no Tatsumaki! akatsukigogeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    Ooof


    I've seen the scene you mentioned. Rayleigh doesn't even defeat Luffy in it tho. It just shows him dodging some G4 attacks and attacking Luffy.
    exceptin that scene it shows rayleigh casually injuring g4 with a single punch. IT obviously depicts him as a higher strength level.


    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    You are neglecting that Rayleigh only got the hit in and cut Kizaru's cheek because Kizaru was neglecting him. Just like Jozu made Aokiji bleed because Aokiji wasn't focusing on him. Or Marco and Vista managing to cut and trouble Akainu because Akainu was not giving a fuck about them until they stepped in.

    Aokiji was also occupied by Jozu until Jozu looked away and got frozen. Vista was keeping Mihawk busy, until both decided to part ways and continue another time. That is quite similar to the clash between Rayleigh and Kizaru.

    What we saw from Rayleigh was a one time kind of deal, and was a brief clash where it is known that Rayleigh himself noted that he could stall for just a bit, not for hours or days.

    Akainu and Aokiji fight for days, and you want to put Rayleigh on the same level of the admirals who hold on against each other for days?
    its not about the hit on his cheek that im talking about its the way they fought. The instances between admiral vs rayleigh and admirals vs wb commanders was that the admirals had room to play around with the wb commanders. Kizaru was his normal troll self, akainu didnt even acknowledge them, aokiji was fina and one shot jozu. Vista has the better showing sure but he was just stalling mihawk, mihawk was barely even trying vista was just showing a level of power that current zoro could replicate it certainly doesnt mean he was equal or comparable. However with rayleigh and kizarus fight they fought to a stand still. you say that rayleigh couldnt focus on anyone but kizaru in a way to downplay him, but kizaru was just the same in that instance. He couldnt back away or focus on anything else but rayleigh.They were fighting equally and ended the fight on equal ground. You can try to hype up the WB commanders, but at the end of the day they got mid-diffed by admirals and rayleigh went toe to toe with one. He wasnt trying to use some strategy or roundabout way to defeat kizaru like luffy does in instances where hes fighting someone obviusly stronger. He was going full force toe to toe. Thats a completely differnt level of feats and is incomparable to the WB commanders lackluster performance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    90% of this sentence doesnt even make any sense. Luffy hitting Kaido and getting him serious enough to fight while not doing any damage is not comparable at all to Kizaru vs Rayleigh. Rayleigh got the hit in because Kizaru was not focusing on him. That's the only damage he did to Kizaru.

    You saying Rayleigh should be in the same tier thanks to that is like saying Vista should be on the same tier as Mihawk because of their clash.
    you simply didnt understand my analogy. You were saying rayleigh and marco are the same tier but one showed to be equal to an admiral while one got mid-diffed, my point was they werent both fighting admirals toe to toe and just because they both faced admiral does not make the feat level the same. Marco survived kizaru, rayleigh life on equal footing cuz he could. Thats what i meant about luffy and kaido. Luffy is obviosly noy on kaidos level just because he made him sober up and survived a name move. same for marco and the admirals obviously, but not the same for rayleigh since rayleigh didnt just survive and admiral and barely escape. His whole showing in the fight was under tha basis that he was equal to kizaru, but wasn't young enough to be doing this all day.

    As for vista him going against an untrying mihawk and have a sword spar for a little bit is not the same as making mihawk go out so he doesnt fall behind and lose the battle. 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. They just sparred a bit got a feel for each other and decided the battle would take too long. While thats a plus for vista its completely different if it were vistas moves actually causing mihawk to move oraound and use other named moves to counter them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    Yes, they were not on a whole other level, but the point still stands. Just because someone has a better weapon than you doesn't mean that someone is stronger than you.

    And you clearly ignored Hyogoro ... oh and btw. Sentomaru had that kind of haki Pre TS. You mean that Sentomaru, just because he had that haki, is stronger than current Luffy?
    i guess you didnt read my argument fully. I stated that hyogoro doesnt know the second level and said himself that what luffy did to the collar was way more advanced than what he was trying to teach him. Also your argument here only works if both characters have their ups and downs but are realtively equal like say zoro and sanji. Zoro has strength and armanent and sanji has speed and observation they have "better weapons" than they other but still arent a whole tier more powerful. This is completely different to someone who is you strength level in aa whole or higher and on top of that has a better weapon. if zoro was cloned and that clone was magically giving conquerors haki, future observation and second level armanent wouldnt he be way more powerful than normal zoro? and not just relative with a "better weapon" as you put it. rayleighs feats put him already stronger thna luffy with out the second level and than you add that on top and it makes the gap that much bigger. Thats why rayleigh casually knowing how to do it is an indicator that luffy hasnt caught up to that tier of power yet. also about the sentomaru thing that definitely is an outlier but it would still mean sentomarus knowledge about haki is greater than luffys in armanent anyway. However he isnt as strong as luffy so that doesnt matter. its the fact that rayleigh is as strong if not greater that makes for a higher tier of power argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    Your "Sincerely doubt" is based on your opinion and not on factual evidence. Factual evidence is:
    - Jozu got a hit on Aokiji when Aokiji was not focusing him, then they were kept busy by each other until Jozu got distracted and got frozen
    - Vista and Mihawk sparred with each other until a standstill where they agreed that it would be wise to postpone the fight
    - Rayleigh got a hit on Kizaru when Kizaru was not focusing him, and then they sparred with each other until a standstill, with Rayleigh acknowledging he couldn't let his guard down nor help the Straw Hats as he already had his hands quite full

    See the similarities?
    ive already talked about this up above. They are not similar instances as you put it. They are differnt serious levels from the admirals all together. You saying this is like saying like person A fought luffy in g2 and g3 and survived and Person B fought G4 and survived. Person A and Person B must be equal in power. IT's just wrong. kizaru was absolutely serious about fighting rayleigh while he was trolling marco. What does that tell you? also my doubt is based off of factual evidence because saying luffy is on rayleighs level is exactly like saying zoro is on mihawks level.


    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    You know Rayleigh said he had nothing else to teach Luffy because he had already taught everything he knew/could, with 1/4 of the time still to go, right? So Rayleigh himself thought Luffy was already strong enough and that he had to figure out and train the rest.
    What of this implies that Rayleigh is much stronger than Luffy? Quite literally ... nothing.
    He could only train luffy in the basics of haki, he obviously knew more such as the second level of armanent, but couldnt teach luffy about it because luffy simply couldnt do it at the time so it would have been a waste of their limited training time. Luffy had to advance his haki the near death fights and couldnt simply train for it. Also are you seriously asking what puts rayleigh above luffy? Oh gee idk, fighting toe to toe with an admiral like ive been saying, second level of armanent, the fact that luffy keeps thinking back to rayleighs level of power as something for him to reach in order to level up. I know rayleigh is basically all hype and no feats, but everything the story tells us about rayleigh is that he is better than luffy. Its like saying oh cuz gold roger barely has any feats he cant possibly stronger than the yonkou. like no we have apparent storytelling elements that tell us that gold roiger was the pinnacle of strength in one piece. Same goes for rayleigh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    As for Doflamingo, as it's already been discussed again and again, Doflamingo was a man at death's door after Gamma Knife, with some patch up done by himself, and still fought and outlasted G4. The civilians had to help Luffy gain time and escape from Doflamingo. A guy that proved he could adapt, stall and deflect / block G4 hits with Awakening.

    In a way, similar to Cracker who had to block and wait for the time to strike Luffy once G4 runs out, and Luffy had to run and be helped by Nami and her rain.

    I'm not saying Doflamingo is stronger or exactly equal to Cracker. I'm saying he gave Luffy enough trouble to put him in the same situation as during Cracker's and Katakuri's fight, where he needed help to run and stall and recover. And outlasted G4 and would have defeated Luffy if not for the outside help, while he himself got no help and had gotten a beating already. Does this grant him to be moved to one tier under Luffy and be put in the same level as Law and Zoro? That's nonsensical. We would have to create a new tier in between just for Doflamingo for that to make any sense.
    The gamma knife is really insignificant to the power scale becasue sure it allowed luffy to fight more equally with doffy, but not being hurt by the gamma knife wouldnt magically make doffy on g4s level. Doffy was absolutey destroyed by it and even awakening only acted as a stall for g4 until eventually becoming useless as well. As many people have said before doffy wasnt the only one not in top shape. The omly reason he was edging over luffy in the beginning was because he was perfectly fine while luffy was tired af. than gamma knife made the playing field equal again. a 100% doffy vs a 100% g4 lufy is just going to result in doffy losing and getting finished off instead of g4 running out. Luffy was spamming his haki all day its no wonder his time limit was short af,l but the whole point is that someon like rayleigh who doesnt have other forms but is still on G4s level or even higher casually sahould be on the same tier as someone who getting fodderized by said level of power. Even if you could make arguments for rayleigh and luffy you cant compare rayligh and doffy their really isnt an excuse as well as katakuri and doffy. Honestly doffy shouldnt be in katakuris tier might have to make a whole other argument for that, but as you said before its kind of stupid to put him in the same tier as law.

    on a side note: what do you think about moving trebol down a tier. I think its pretty stupid to put him on the same level as pica and vergo. You really think trebol could do ANYTHING to either sanji or zoro in the dressrosa arc like vergo and pica did. Hed get destroyed. Like legit a lot of the people in upper high would rekt trebol and i think it does the mid trio a great injustice to say that trebol is a whole tier more powerful than them.

  3. #1673
    Stoned ICEMAN's Avatar
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    "Big news" Morgans : God tier.

  4. #1674
    Overhaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICEMAN View Post
    "Big news" Morgans : God tier.
    That we can all agree on
    Think you know about powerscaling?
    Then come to the Tier List Thread and prove it!!




  5. #1675
    Senior Member desa's Avatar
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    Cool to see the yonko in one tier instead of weirdly split and not putting Shanks there shows quite some restraints. I would still just put them together with admirals until they properly dominated them but you take what you can.

    What are the current debates about?

  6. #1676
    Overhaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akatsukigogeta View Post
    exceptin that scene it shows rayleigh casually injuring g4 with a single punch. IT obviously depicts him as a higher strength level.
    Also filler tho. Therefore, useless to the debate.

    its not about the hit on his cheek that im talking about its the way they fought. The instances between admiral vs rayleigh and admirals vs wb commanders was that the admirals had room to play around with the wb commanders. Kizaru was his normal troll self, akainu didnt even acknowledge them, aokiji was fina and one shot jozu. Vista has the better showing sure but he was just stalling mihawk, mihawk was barely even trying vista was just showing a level of power that current zoro could replicate it certainly doesnt mean he was equal or comparable. However with rayleigh and kizarus fight they fought to a stand still. you say that rayleigh couldnt focus on anyone but kizaru in a way to downplay him, but kizaru was just the same in that instance. He couldnt back away or focus on anything else but rayleigh.They were fighting equally and ended the fight on equal ground. You can try to hype up the WB commanders, but at the end of the day they got mid-diffed by admirals and rayleigh went toe to toe with one. He wasnt trying to use some strategy or roundabout way to defeat kizaru like luffy does in instances where hes fighting someone obviusly stronger. He was going full force toe to toe. Thats a completely differnt level of feats and is incomparable to the WB commanders lackluster performance.
    It was a short scuffle. As short or shorter than Vista vs Mihawk, and this does not put Vista in Mihawk's level.

    Kizaru couldn't go after the SH because when he tried, Rayleigh cut his cheek. It's not that he was overwhelmed, it's that he would get stopped from going after his goal, but this does not prove equality. It proves Rayleigh could stall him, just like Jozu could stall Aokiji or Marco could stall Akainu and Kizaru.

    You are saying the WB commanders got mid diffed by Admirals while Rayleigh went toe to toe with one, but again, they were short scuffles. The only one who got offed was Jozu, and that was because he got distracted. Something Rayleigh knew he couldn't afford to do, else he could probably suffer the same fate.
    Marco got offed because of outside assistance from a VA locking him with seastone. Had Kizaru gotten outside assistance vs Rayleigh and it would have ended up the same.

    Another point is, it is very hard to deduce that someone is equal with a short scuffle. Because Marco and Kizaru traded blows evenly on their first scuffle. Vista and Mihawk too. But this does not prove them equal. With other feats, or other combats, it is easily seen that they are not. And through context, same could be said for Rayleigh.

    you simply didnt understand my analogy. You were saying rayleigh and marco are the same tier but one showed to be equal to an admiral while one got mid-diffed, my point was they werent both fighting admirals toe to toe and just because they both faced admiral does not make the feat level the same. Marco survived kizaru, rayleigh life on equal footing cuz he could. Thats what i meant about luffy and kaido. Luffy is obviosly noy on kaidos level just because he made him sober up and survived a name move. same for marco and the admirals obviously, but not the same for rayleigh since rayleigh didnt just survive and admiral and barely escape. His whole showing in the fight was under tha basis that he was equal to kizaru, but wasn't young enough to be doing this all day.

    As for vista him going against an untrying mihawk and have a sword spar for a little bit is not the same as making mihawk go out so he doesnt fall behind and lose the battle. 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. They just sparred a bit got a feel for each other and decided the battle would take too long. While thats a plus for vista its completely different if it were vistas moves actually causing mihawk to move oraound and use other named moves to counter them.
    Don't compare Marco vs Kizaru with Luffy vs Kaido.
    Marco withstood attacks from Kizaru and was only disabled with someone else intervening. Luffy got one shot right after Kaido took on a barrage of his attacks. That would be like, right after Kizaru attacked Marco with his lasers when Marco tanked them, Marco kicked Kizaru and one shot him. That would be similar. But that's not what happened.

    On what evidence do you claim that was an "untrying" Mihawk, when Mihawk himself recognised Vista as a worthy opponent and, worthy enough to wanting to continue another time? You are basing this claim on nothing.
    We do not know if they used named moves or not because Oda chose not to show their fight. Oda just let us know they fought to a standstill and decided, due to the occurrences in the war aka Pacifistas surrounding them, it would not be a convenient battleground to have a fair fight.
    i guess you didnt read my argument fully. I stated that hyogoro doesnt know the second level and said himself that what luffy did to the collar was way more advanced than what he was trying to teach him. Also your argument here only works if both characters have their ups and downs but are realtively equal like say zoro and sanji. Zoro has strength and armanent and sanji has speed and observation they have "better weapons" than they other but still arent a whole tier more powerful. This is completely different to someone who is you strength level in aa whole or higher and on top of that has a better weapon. if zoro was cloned and that clone was magically giving conquerors haki, future observation and second level armanent wouldnt he be way more powerful than normal zoro? and not just relative with a "better weapon" as you put it. rayleighs feats put him already stronger thna luffy with out the second level and than you add that on top and it makes the gap that much bigger. Thats why rayleigh casually knowing how to do it is an indicator that luffy hasnt caught up to that tier of power yet. also about the sentomaru thing that definitely is an outlier but it would still mean sentomarus knowledge about haki is greater than luffys in armanent anyway. However he isnt as strong as luffy so that doesnt matter. its the fact that rayleigh is as strong if not greater that makes for a higher tier of power argument.
    But he does. He did it in chapter 939. Check it, or see this panel
    Spoiler!


    That's him using the same haki he was trying to teach Luffy.

    The problem is, you're basing this claim on a filler. What proof do you have that Rayleigh has more strength, endurance, and speed than current Luffy? None. There's no terms of comparison.


    ive already talked about this up above. They are not similar instances as you put it. They are differnt serious levels from the admirals all together. You saying this is like saying like person A fought luffy in g2 and g3 and survived and Person B fought G4 and survived. Person A and Person B must be equal in power. IT's just wrong. kizaru was absolutely serious about fighting rayleigh while he was trolling marco. What does that tell you? also my doubt is based off of factual evidence because saying luffy is on rayleighs level is exactly like saying zoro is on mihawks level.
    What I'm using are terms of comparison. If person A and person B are in the same tier and are pretty much equal, and person A fight Luffy and beats him and proves to be much stronger than Luffy, then we can say that person B could probably due the same.

    Absolutely serious while fighting Rayleigh? He was giving the same snarky remarks as he did vs Marco or vs Ben. Stuff like "Oh, you have me at the point of a gun, I should be careful" or "Oh you are an old man, you're making me look bad here" or "Oh, what strength you have" are about the same level of seriousness when you are talking about someone like Kizaru.

    So Luffy can't be on Rayleigh level or above because Rayleigh trained him? So that means Sanji can't be on Ivankov's level or above? Or that we can never expect Luffy to surpass Rayleigh or Zoro to surpass Mihawk? That's flawed.

    He could only train luffy in the basics of haki, he obviously knew more such as the second level of armanent, but couldnt teach luffy about it because luffy simply couldnt do it at the time so it would have been a waste of their limited training time. Luffy had to advance his haki the near death fights and couldnt simply train for it. Also are you seriously asking what puts rayleigh above luffy? Oh gee idk, fighting toe to toe with an admiral like ive been saying, second level of armanent, the fact that luffy keeps thinking back to rayleighs level of power as something for him to reach in order to level up. I know rayleigh is basically all hype and no feats, but everything the story tells us about rayleigh is that he is better than luffy. Its like saying oh cuz gold roger barely has any feats he cant possibly stronger than the yonkou. like no we have apparent storytelling elements that tell us that gold roiger was the pinnacle of strength in one piece. Same goes for rayleigh.
    But Grandpa Hyo could, guess Rayleigh is just a bad teacher
    If Rayleigh was so much stronger than Luffy, than he could have pushed Luffy the same way with "near death fights" to advance his haki. Why didn't he do it? Maybe because he couldn't?

    Fighting toe to toe with an admiral - short scuffle. Several others have fought short scuffles with admirals, Luffy included, with a form that is not his strongest.
    Having second level of armament, as proven above with Hyo and Sentomaru examples, does not make one instantly stronger than another who does not have it.
    Luffy keeps thinking back to Rayleigh's advice and teachings, not his power levels don't twist the manga, man. He's not "Oh Rayleigh is so strong I want to be like him!". No. He keeps on thinking about advices and lessons Rayleigh gave for him to apply. A young student can do that while being stronger than his old sensei.

    You're admitting all you have on Rayleigh is pretty much hype my case is closed. Check first post and what is said about hype. We need feats instead.


    The gamma knife is really insignificant to the power scale becasue sure it allowed luffy to fight more equally with doffy, but not being hurt by the gamma knife wouldnt magically make doffy on g4s level. Doffy was absolutey destroyed by it and even awakening only acted as a stall for g4 until eventually becoming useless as well. As many people have said before doffy wasnt the only one not in top shape. The omly reason he was edging over luffy in the beginning was because he was perfectly fine while luffy was tired af. than gamma knife made the playing field equal again. a 100% doffy vs a 100% g4 lufy is just going to result in doffy losing and getting finished off instead of g4 running out. Luffy was spamming his haki all day its no wonder his time limit was short af,l but the whole point is that someon like rayleigh who doesnt have other forms but is still on G4s level or even higher casually sahould be on the same tier as someone who getting fodderized by said level of power. Even if you could make arguments for rayleigh and luffy you cant compare rayligh and doffy their really isnt an excuse as well as katakuri and doffy. Honestly doffy shouldnt be in katakuris tier might have to make a whole other argument for that, but as you said before its kind of stupid to put him in the same tier as law.

    on a side note: what do you think about moving trebol down a tier. I think its pretty stupid to put him on the same level as pica and vergo. You really think trebol could do ANYTHING to either sanji or zoro in the dressrosa arc like vergo and pica did. Hed get destroyed. Like legit a lot of the people in upper high would rekt trebol and i think it does the mid trio a great injustice to say that trebol is a whole tier more powerful than them.
    Being hurt by gamma knife hindered Doflamingo to a level of exhaustion where Luffy was. Doflamingo said that Luffy was quite weared down and Luffy replied back that he was pretty much the same with the "number" Law did on him.

    So, yes, while Luffy spent almost the whole day fighting, with some rests and food in between, Doflamingo taking on gamma knife does put Luffy on somewhat of an equal ground with him.

    Like you stated before, different fighters have different strengths. While Katakuri is pretty good at brawling and dodging, Doflamingo showed to be pretty good at keeping his distance and blocking, and showed a hell of an endurance too.
    Pitch Cracker vs Doflamingo, and is it clear who wins? Doflamingo could keep his distance for days and block Cracker's way until he manages to puncture his armour and win. Or Cracker could probably get around Doflamingo's crafty strategies and slice him um a few times. Maybe. But Doflamingo's resilience and endurance is stronger than Cracker's, so who's to say he couldn't take some of his attacks by blocking them and hit him back with a decisive attack?

    Problem is, the fight could go either way here. With Katakuri, Doflamingo would have a much harder time, but so did Luffy. Luffy "won" under very specific and special circumstances, and even then there are some who argue he didn't win. Just like against Doflamingo and Cracker, Luffy got a lot of help to win, so that puts them on a special place.

    As for Trebol, that can be discussed too.


    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Cool to see the yonko in one tier instead of weirdly split and not putting Shanks there shows quite some restraints. I would still just put them together with admirals until they properly dominated them but you take what you can.

    What are the current debates about?
    The one I lost the will to debate further because of previous debates about the same topic is Doflamingo being in the same tier as Katakuri and Luffy.
    I have pointed that it makes no sense putting him in the same tier as Law (moving Mingo one tier down) and that it creates problems if we try to create a tier in between.

    Another was that some people find it insulting to have Rayleigh one tier below Kizaru, for reasons previously discussed, and one of the arguments is that since he can use the new level of armament he is so much stronger than Luffy who couldn't. Nevermind Sentomaru and Granpda Hyo. And nevermind Luffy and others having fought opponents with haki stronger than his in the past (Satori, Ohm, Marigold, Sandersonia, etc) and bested them, proving to be stronger. Another argument is that since Rayleigh wiped the floor with G4 Luffy in an anime filler that makes it cannon

    I will let the community decide on this, anyway.
    @AppleCider @ICEMAN @FireAngeL @Joseph Joestar @Outlaw @G O A T @Blast @AndrewtheAmericanDude @Alibaba Saluja @Spiegel

    Just mentioned the ones I remembered.
    Think you know about powerscaling?
    Then come to the Tier List Thread and prove it!!




  7. #1677
    Joseph Joestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    Also filler tho. Therefore, useless to the debate.


    It was a short scuffle. As short or shorter than Vista vs Mihawk, and this does not put Vista in Mihawk's level.

    Kizaru couldn't go after the SH because when he tried, Rayleigh cut his cheek. It's not that he was overwhelmed, it's that he would get stopped from going after his goal, but this does not prove equality. It proves Rayleigh could stall him, just like Jozu could stall Aokiji or Marco could stall Akainu and Kizaru.

    You are saying the WB commanders got mid diffed by Admirals while Rayleigh went toe to toe with one, but again, they were short scuffles. The only one who got offed was Jozu, and that was because he got distracted. Something Rayleigh knew he couldn't afford to do, else he could probably suffer the same fate.
    Marco got offed because of outside assistance from a VA locking him with seastone. Had Kizaru gotten outside assistance vs Rayleigh and it would have ended up the same.

    Another point is, it is very hard to deduce that someone is equal with a short scuffle. Because Marco and Kizaru traded blows evenly on their first scuffle. Vista and Mihawk too. But this does not prove them equal. With other feats, or other combats, it is easily seen that they are not. And through context, same could be said for Rayleigh.


    Don't compare Marco vs Kizaru with Luffy vs Kaido.
    Marco withstood attacks from Kizaru and was only disabled with someone else intervening. Luffy got one shot right after Kaido took on a barrage of his attacks. That would be like, right after Kizaru attacked Marco with his lasers when Marco tanked them, Marco kicked Kizaru and one shot him. That would be similar. But that's not what happened.

    On what evidence do you claim that was an "untrying" Mihawk, when Mihawk himself recognised Vista as a worthy opponent and, worthy enough to wanting to continue another time? You are basing this claim on nothing.
    We do not know if they used named moves or not because Oda chose not to show their fight. Oda just let us know they fought to a standstill and decided, due to the occurrences in the war aka Pacifistas surrounding them, it would not be a convenient battleground to have a fair fight.


    But he does. He did it in chapter 939. Check it, or see this panel
    Spoiler!


    That's him using the same haki he was trying to teach Luffy.

    The problem is, you're basing this claim on a filler. What proof do you have that Rayleigh has more strength, endurance, and speed than current Luffy? None. There's no terms of comparison.



    What I'm using are terms of comparison. If person A and person B are in the same tier and are pretty much equal, and person A fight Luffy and beats him and proves to be much stronger than Luffy, then we can say that person B could probably due the same.

    Absolutely serious while fighting Rayleigh? He was giving the same snarky remarks as he did vs Marco or vs Ben. Stuff like "Oh, you have me at the point of a gun, I should be careful" or "Oh you are an old man, you're making me look bad here" or "Oh, what strength you have" are about the same level of seriousness when you are talking about someone like Kizaru.

    So Luffy can't be on Rayleigh level or above because Rayleigh trained him? So that means Sanji can't be on Ivankov's level or above? Or that we can never expect Luffy to surpass Rayleigh or Zoro to surpass Mihawk? That's flawed.


    But Grandpa Hyo could, guess Rayleigh is just a bad teacher
    If Rayleigh was so much stronger than Luffy, than he could have pushed Luffy the same way with "near death fights" to advance his haki. Why didn't he do it? Maybe because he couldn't?

    Fighting toe to toe with an admiral - short scuffle. Several others have fought short scuffles with admirals, Luffy included, with a form that is not his strongest.
    Having second level of armament, as proven above with Hyo and Sentomaru examples, does not make one instantly stronger than another who does not have it.
    Luffy keeps thinking back to Rayleigh's advice and teachings, not his power levels don't twist the manga, man. He's not "Oh Rayleigh is so strong I want to be like him!". No. He keeps on thinking about advices and lessons Rayleigh gave for him to apply. A young student can do that while being stronger than his old sensei.

    You're admitting all you have on Rayleigh is pretty much hype my case is closed. Check first post and what is said about hype. We need feats instead.




    Being hurt by gamma knife hindered Doflamingo to a level of exhaustion where Luffy was. Doflamingo said that Luffy was quite weared down and Luffy replied back that he was pretty much the same with the "number" Law did on him.

    So, yes, while Luffy spent almost the whole day fighting, with some rests and food in between, Doflamingo taking on gamma knife does put Luffy on somewhat of an equal ground with him.

    Like you stated before, different fighters have different strengths. While Katakuri is pretty good at brawling and dodging, Doflamingo showed to be pretty good at keeping his distance and blocking, and showed a hell of an endurance too.
    Pitch Cracker vs Doflamingo, and is it clear who wins? Doflamingo could keep his distance for days and block Cracker's way until he manages to puncture his armour and win. Or Cracker could probably get around Doflamingo's crafty strategies and slice him um a few times. Maybe. But Doflamingo's resilience and endurance is stronger than Cracker's, so who's to say he couldn't take some of his attacks by blocking them and hit him back with a decisive attack?

    Problem is, the fight could go either way here. With Katakuri, Doflamingo would have a much harder time, but so did Luffy. Luffy "won" under very specific and special circumstances, and even then there are some who argue he didn't win. Just like against Doflamingo and Cracker, Luffy got a lot of help to win, so that puts them on a special place.

    As for Trebol, that can be discussed too.



    The one I lost the will to debate further because of previous debates about the same topic is Doflamingo being in the same tier as Katakuri and Luffy.
    I have pointed that it makes no sense putting him in the same tier as Law (moving Mingo one tier down) and that it creates problems if we try to create a tier in between.

    Another was that some people find it insulting to have Rayleigh one tier below Kizaru, for reasons previously discussed, and one of the arguments is that since he can use the new level of armament he is so much stronger than Luffy who couldn't. Nevermind Sentomaru and Granpda Hyo. And nevermind Luffy and others having fought opponents with haki stronger than his in the past (Satori, Ohm, Marigold, Sandersonia, etc) and bested them, proving to be stronger. Another argument is that since Rayleigh wiped the floor with G4 Luffy in an anime filler that makes it cannon

    I will let the community decide on this, anyway.
    @AppleCider @ICEMAN @FireAngeL @Joseph Joestar @Outlaw @G O A T @Blast @AndrewtheAmericanDude @Alibaba Saluja @Spiegel

    Just mentioned the ones I remembered.
    It might make things easier if we do a mild revamp of the top tiers. I feel like the list is pretty solid outside of that. The more information that comes out the more the top list gets shifted and we don't really get a clear view until Luffy gets stronger.

    Now we see a clear difference between top commanders and the top commander. Think of how Jozu and Marco both got caught marco was even cuffed yet he kept on pushing fighting the admirals but Jozu was taken out easily by Aokji when he was caught off guard, or how Cracker put up a challenge to Luffy but Katakuri made him well surpass his previous self.

    I think both Doffy and Law are relative to one another. Law nearly killed him with game knife and have him on the ground. You could argue it was a surprise attack but when Marco landed a clean shot on Aokji by surprise he didn't almost kill him.

    I think we should have characters representing the average strength of someone in that tier and might need to expand on summit tier. I'd argue for lower top someone like Perspero would be a good pick for the average. He's strong but not quite a top 3 yonko commander level character. He would probably get mid diffed by someone like Cracker who would be a good candidate for average top tier status. Then set Katakuri as upper top average. The admirals and yonko should all be moved to summit since we know very little about all of them and we can add more tiers to summit when we actually get more feats for these beasts

    Spoiler!

  8. #1678
    Senior Member Wallyrine's Avatar
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    Get ready to push Boa Hancock all the way up this list lol

  9. #1679
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    Doflamingo was clearly above Law tho Dressrosa Luffy alone wasnt enough to beat him. WCI Luffy definitely would be but not by a huge margin.

    And yeah I dont entirely see Rayleigh as Kizaru level personally

    Spoiler!

  10. #1680
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    @Overhaul thoughts on Sabo for Upper Top (he severely injured Fujitora) and Rocks for Summit Tier (it required Roger and Garp to defeat him)?

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