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  1. #21
    Common Sense Tingling Shaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperKing View Post
    Right you are. In real life I am known for being a pessimist, so maybe that's just my pessimistic side speaking. I don't know about other countries but in Finland we used to have 0% non-religious people at the beginning of the 1900s and now the amount is 25%.

    Cut a little of our convo from the quote since I thought that it had reached its saturation point. To answer your question here: in my opinion, no it isn't. Children don't really understand much of the world, so using that to decide their religion for them isn't what I would prefer. Except for sport teams, when I make my little brother support the one and only hockey team it's completely okay

    Nah, I think that this was a pretty interesting convo. Especially considering that neither of us was discussing in our native language. I might very well do that when I have the time
    Religion was something to be afraid of back in the day so yeah that makes sense.

    Oh no i totally agree about the saturation point i was running out of things to say

    About the morality thing, i know kids will not outright go and sacrifice themselves just because jesus did but it puts this twisted idea in their head when it shouldn't be.

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  2. #22
    Common Sense Tingling Shaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirei View Post
    I don't think it's wrong to teach them that. I never heard that anyone thought that Jesus death brought happiness though. The important part is that Jesus carries your sins with you as long as you accept him. The death is just symbolic to show you that Jesus would do everything for you. Even sacrifice himself.
    Not direct happiness but as you say jesus did absolve people of their sins, should they be sad? should they feel nothing? doesn't matter, at the end of the day they felt relieved and it brought them happiness in the long run.

    Why are we born with sin then? How is it moral to tell a child that they are born with a sin on their back if the purpose is not to make them afraid of god and here's the good part they should love him as well, it's just sick.


    Quote Originally Posted by Derfel View Post

    That part is in the old testament. Directed for the Jewish people. Those where laws for them.

    When Jesus it became diferente. Similar but only reading the new testament for you to understand it completely.

    The time of the Law back than and the time of Grace now.
    As for slavery this is a bit off topic so i would direct you to this link (Granted it has some of the old testament but as well some of the new):
    https://www.openbible.info/topics/slavery
    Yeah. That is a gun in my pants. But that doesn't mean I'm not happy to see you...

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  3. #23
    18+ Blast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaki View Post
    Not direct happiness but as you say jesus did absolve people of their sins, should they be sad? should they feel nothing? doesn't matter, at the end of the day they felt relieved and it brought them happiness in the long run.

    Why are we born with sin then? How is it moral to tell a child that they are born with a sin on their back if the purpose is not to make them afraid of god and here's the good part they should love him as well, it's just sick.
    According to the Bible, God made Adam and Eve perfect and wanted them to fill the Earth. He also let them have free will. They chose to disobey him, which led to bringing sin and death to the rest of humanity.

    God wasn't at fault. It was Adam and Eve's fault. God wanted humanity to live in peace and with no pain.

  4. #24
    Common Sense Tingling Shaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TouchMahBelly View Post
    According to the Bible, God made Adam and Eve perfect and wanted them to fill the Earth. He also let them have free will. They chose to disobey him, which led to bringing sin and death to the rest of humanity.

    God wasn't at fault. It was Adam and Eve's fault. God wanted humanity to live in peace and with no pain.
    By that logic, do you think i should pay for my dad's mistakes ? do you think it's ok to force me repent for the sins of my father ?

    Can't we live in peace and in no pain without god? why is it imperative that we force each other to believe that we are weak in nature and we need holy guidance?
    Yeah. That is a gun in my pants. But that doesn't mean I'm not happy to see you...

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  5. #25
    18+ Blast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaki View Post
    By that logic, do you think i should pay for my dad's mistakes ? do you think it's ok to force me repent for the sins of my father ?

    Can't we live in peace and in no pain without god? why is it imperative that we force each other to believe that we are weak in nature and we need holy guidance?
    It isn't God who made pain and suffer. God told them specifically what will happen once they eat the forbidden fruit. Sin and death are like an incurable disease. Because of Adam and Eve it passed down to all humanity.

    And it's not like God doesn't want to fix it either. The bible does say he will act soon, and when that'll happen, he will erase all evil.

    Even if there weren't any religions, people would never live in peace. People always try to take over others, fight for money and resources, slave others etc. Religion isn't the only cause for wars.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Mycal Phelps's Avatar
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    Let's see where we'd get even *if* an atheist would somehow think that the story of Adam and Eve is truthful.

    If God is all-knowing, he knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him. If God is all-powerful and benevolent, he would have told them the consequences of disobeying him. Consider that if God is all those three things, then he intentionally engineered the circumstances of their disobeyal and the inevitable punishment to it. In short, God would not only be responsible for Adam and Eve's betrayal, he would have been the mastermind behind it. Giving Adam and Eve free will wouldn't matter, for God is omniscient. On the other hand, if God was benevolent but incapable of influencing their decisions, where does that lead us? God would be either impotent or evil.

  7. #27
    Common Sense Tingling Shaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TouchMahBelly View Post
    It isn't God who made pain and suffer. God told them specifically what will happen once they eat the forbidden fruit. Sin and death are like an incurable disease. Because of Adam and Eve it passed down to all humanity.

    And it's not like God doesn't want to fix it either. The bible does say he will act soon, and when that'll happen, he will erase all evil.

    Even if there weren't any religions, people would never live in peace. People always try to take over others, fight for money and resources, slave others etc. Religion isn't the only cause for wars.
    For a believer mind, god created pain and suffering, god created everything, because he wants humans to balance themselves... who created the forbidden fruit? why was it forbidden? Adam and Eve is only a symbol and it's a bad one.

    The thing is that the world did not experience itself without religion, we can't know for sure what might happen, but in case people fight for resources and territory it will be something that can be negotiated about, not a divine will.
    Yeah. That is a gun in my pants. But that doesn't mean I'm not happy to see you...

    S'matter Buddy? You look a little, what's the word I'm looking for here, Stupid.

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  8. #28
    18+ Blast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycal Phelps View Post
    Let's see where we'd get even *if* an atheist would somehow think that the story of Adam and Eve is truthful.

    If God is all-knowing, he knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him. If God is all-powerful and benevolent, he would have told them the consequences of disobeying him. Consider that if God is all those three things, then he intentionally engineered the circumstances of their disobeyal and the inevitable punishment to it. In short, God would not only be responsible for Adam and Eve's betrayal, he would have been the mastermind behind it. Giving Adam and Eve free will wouldn't matter, for God is omniscient. On the other hand, if God was benevolent but incapable of influencing their decisions, where does that lead us? God would be either impotent or evil.
    That's one perspective. You could also say, God is indeed all knowing, but what if he himself chose not to "see the future"? What good is free will if everything is planned? He didn't want to interfere, because he gave them a chance. He didn't force them to obey him.

    And if you all already discussing about religions, you have to remember that there was another cause (more like the cause) for their betrayal and the birth of sin and death. Satan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaki View Post
    For a believer mind, god created pain and suffering, god created everything, because he wants humans to balance themselves... who created the forbidden fruit? why was it forbidden? Adam and Eve is only a symbol and it's a bad one.

    The thing is that the world did not experience itself without religion, we can't know for sure what might happen, but in case people fight for resources and territory it will be something that can be negotiated about, not a divine will.
    To a believer God didn't mean for that to happen. It happened because of Satan. And you can say that he made it forbidden to test them. To see if they actually obey him, if they're loyal. Even tho' he gave them everything, he only asked for one little thing. They chose death instead of life.
    Last edited by Blast; Nov 24th '16 at 11:33 AM.

  9. #29
    Kill The President! Derfel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaki View Post
    Not direct happiness but as you say jesus did absolve people of their sins, should they be sad? should they feel nothing? doesn't matter, at the end of the day they felt relieved and it brought them happiness in the long run.

    Why are we born with sin then? How is it moral to tell a child that they are born with a sin on their back if the purpose is not to make them afraid of god and here's the good part they should love him as well, it's just sick.

    When we are kids we don't know between right or wrong.

    We are supposed to fear God. Not to be afraid of him. Because of Adam and Eve sin came into earth. And death was also introduced.
    We still suffer because of them.

    But we don't need to be upset because Jesus died for us to bring us eternal life.



    Quote Originally Posted by Shaki View Post
    As for slavery this is a bit off topic so i would direct you to this link (Granted it has some of the old testament but as well some of the new):
    https://www.openbible.info/topics/slavery


    The slave owner provided for all the slaves earthly needs i.e. a job, food, clothing, and shelter. In exchange, the slave provided a service. It was an acceptable life-style to many in Jesus' day.

    We have to keep in mind that slavery was an acceptable way for one to improve his/her lot in life and Jesus preached a way to make it better.

    He preached that master's should be good to their slaves. He also preached that slaves should be good to their masters. (Or at least Peter his disciple did, which was in agreement with Jesus' life and teachings.)

    He saw nothing wrong in being a servant. He lived what he preached. He served God, the Father. He served men through His crucifixion. (He said, the greatest would be the least and he who would be the greatest would be greatest by being a servant.)

  10. #30
    Common Sense Tingling Shaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycal Phelps View Post
    Let's see where we'd get even *if* an atheist would somehow think that the story of Adam and Eve is truthful.

    If God is all-knowing, he knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him. If God is all-powerful and benevolent, he would have told them the consequences of disobeying him. Consider that if God is all those three things, then he intentionally engineered the circumstances of their disobeyal and the inevitable punishment to it. In short, God would not only be responsible for Adam and Eve's betrayal, he would have been the mastermind behind it. Giving Adam and Eve free will wouldn't matter, for God is omniscient. On the other hand, if God was benevolent but incapable of influencing their decisions, where does that lead us? God would be either impotent or evil.
    I wouldn't go into detail about the myth, of course i would help educate those who think that these were actual historical events and help shed light on the fact that it's not a myth to be taught in schools, one of the main reasons kids are growing up not to believe these myths because they're simply too illogical to be believed in, and that science class is more truthful and tangible than one book.

    Quote Originally Posted by TouchMahBelly View Post
    That's one perspective. You could also say, God is indeed all knowing, but what if he himself chose not to "see the future"? What good is free will if everything is planned? He didn't want to interfere, because he gave them a chance. He didn't force them to obey him.

    And if you all already discussing about religions, you have to remember that there was another cause (more like the cause) for their betrayal and the birth of sin and death. Satan.


    To a believer God didn't mean for that to happen. It happened because of Satan. And you can say that he made it forbidden to test them. To see if they actually obey him, if they're loyal. Even tho' he gave them everything, he only asked for one little thing. They chose death instead of life.
    If he really wants free will, why did he intervene the way he did? why didn't he just let us be?
    Free will isn't something you give and take the next day. Either we have it or we don't.
    Giving the people commandments to follow and say to them they have free will is nothing but a "TEST". And saying that god is testing us is a sad way to live, anyone is free to live the way they want, and they should be born free from this test as well. How sad is it that christian babies are born with "sin" that they need to be baptized in order to cleanse themselves of that

    Just answer me on thing, do you think i should pay for my dad's mistakes ? do you think it's ok to force me repent for the sins of my father ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Derfel View Post
    When we are kids we don't know between right or wrong.

    We are supposed to fear God. Not to be afraid of him. Because of Adam and Eve sin came into earth. And death was also introduced.
    We still suffer because of them.

    But we don't need to be upset because Jesus died for us to bring us eternal life.


    The slave owner provided for all the slaves earthly needs i.e. a job, food, clothing, and shelter. In exchange, the slave provided a service. It was an acceptable life-style to many in Jesus' day.

    We have to keep in mind that slavery was an acceptable way for one to improve his/her lot in life and Jesus preached a way to make it better.

    He preached that master's should be good to their slaves. He also preached that slaves should be good to their masters. (Or at least Peter his disciple did, which was in agreement with Jesus' life and teachings.)

    He saw nothing wrong in being a servant. He lived what he preached. He served God, the Father. He served men through His crucifixion. (He said, the greatest would be the least and he who would be the greatest would be greatest by being a servant.)
    Fear god but not be afraid of him? I don't follow

    You were careful to to only mention slavery in the past and not the present.
    Do you think owning a slave in our times should be allowed?

    The slaves provided a service? you think all those slaves wanted to be slaves? they weren't at all forced against their will? they were being sold and bought ffs, that's the definition of a slave.
    Last edited by Shaki; Nov 24th '16 at 01:30 PM. Reason: bold
    Yeah. That is a gun in my pants. But that doesn't mean I'm not happy to see you...

    S'matter Buddy? You look a little, what's the word I'm looking for here, Stupid.

    Spoiler!


    Curious about the Chicken on a raft ?

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