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  1. #201

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    I think the bomb role is a little bastardly. It is easy to paint a target on one's back.


  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Gir View Post
    I'll end it if you all agree with it. I'd also like to hear your opinions on how to improve the setup.

    For now I learned that I have to think of a way to break up this tie.
    Roles that have too few options to win are too weak. (FBI, Lyncher, Jester)
    Roles that have a lot of options are too strong (Unlyncher, possibly survivor)
    I'm pleased with the options bomb has. Bait the Killer or lynch the Jester.
    The Killer's best bet is to play conservatively, even though he should have been a threat to all. I'm inclined to make him overeager, so he HAS to hit something. Otherwise FBI has no chance if SK comes forward saying "I'm only going to kill an FBI late game. Until then you guys have my vote if you don't lynch me.". Raising SK's threat should also buff the Jester.
    Claiming gives another dimension to the game but it also is too strong on certain characters. I will likely ban it in the future unless i think of a way to have decent counterclaim options.

    I'm toying with the idea of giving the Lyncher 2x vote, and have him as the second potential target for the FBI to hunt. It'll probably be too strong. But something in that general direction.
    They roles all need something to counter one another a bit.
    The issue really, is that almost every role is focus on their own wincon, but certain roles give advantage to others. You may need to add roles that can help balance stronger roles who could win without killing or finding their enemy.
    Perhaps it'd be much more interesting if the DP1 was a fast lynch phase with zero tolerance for claiming until DP2. I doubt that would be too helpful, but well it's an idea.
    We can test it out in a chat site, which takes less time. DP/NP can be DP: 5-10mins and NP 5-10mins as well.
    I know certain sites where we can make a private game, add the roles you need and test it out faster. After you find the right balance or changes, you can run a second game.
    ------ @Aertes Me mean? I would never
    Last edited by Itztli; Dec 25th '16 at 03:22 AM.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by N o i r View Post
    @Ratchet when I told laboon I would vote for him I was clearly joking. (At least it was in that intent from my perspective.)
    I don't think it was that clear Noir. Maybe that's just because I've seen people actually do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by N o i r View Post
    When I said the Unlyncher and survivor had the upper hand when claiming, I did mean that. Was I a bit "meh" over it? Sure, but to accuse me of being spiteful just because I decided to help some one else with their wincon after I saw trying to go win mine, as futile, is a bit much.
    I don't think so at all. It's not so much that you would help someone else, it's that you would actively play against your win con with the intent of screwing someone out of theirs. That's what you were proposing. Lynching the Jester or rather trying to offered a significant chance of your death, but you would do, just so the Unlyncher couldn't win. Because didn't like the fact that I used what was allowed in the game and claimed. That's pretty much the definition of spiteful, Noir.
    Quote Originally Posted by N o i r View Post
    And then saying I was lying today? Giving my opinion or my thought or having a certain belief doesn't qualify as a lie Ratchet. Could have been a false belief from lack of perspective? Sure. I even pointed out that it was my view that the Survivor and Unlyncher were more likely to side with FBI if given the chance. (You claiming your role wasn't a proven fact last DP, for all I know you could have been pulling our leg.)
    And I also explained multiple times why it made no sense for me to lie. Furthermore, you cannot argue in good conscience that the SK had a better chance of winning by aligning against the Unlyncher and the Survivor. Your view was also refuted when I said, again, multiple times, that I had no preference over who I would side with. You don't get to say you were only stating your opinion when your opinion had absolutely no basis, no real reasoning behind it and was refuted thoroughly. No, you were mad people claimed, even though the rules allowed it, because for one reason or another you hated claiming, and you wanted to punish those people by turing other players against them, regardless of reason or logic. So yes Noir. It was a lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by N o i r View Post
    My intention was to eliminate the roles I saw more likely to help out one side more than the other.
    Did I truly know you would stay neutral or wouldn't? No, that's up for debate. Your aim was to keep as many winners with you, what if the SK didn't provide that? I doubt you would have sided with the SK.
    I had no reason to lie though Noir? Why would I, the Unlyncher, care if x or y won? Did you miss all those appeals I made to the SK, asking them not to just blindfire and screw people out of their wincon? Why on earth did you doubt I would side with the SK, when I literally said otherwise in the thread, more than once?
    Quote Originally Posted by N o i r View Post
    My aim wasn't to focus on my Wincon anymore or be spiteful.Rather, it was to find the best way to help whoever I sided with.
    How does this even make sense? Why wouldn't you try for your win con? Hell, in the first post of the day phase, I offered an olive branch to show you that I'm willing to switch sides, as long as you work with me?
    Quote Originally Posted by N o i r View Post
    The reason I felt you were being emotional and butthurt, is because of your "interpretation" of my actions as (spiteful, threatening, deceitful)- they paint a picture to how you felt or saw my actions. Perhaps you're not being emotional, but definitely a bit butthurt that I decided to choose another path after I saw my no point going after my wincon.
    Nothing butthurt about my interpretation at all. If you decide to go against me, then the Survivor has all the more reason to ally with me. I'm not actually losing anything. Again, if anyone displayed this, it was you.
    Quote Originally Posted by N o i r View Post
    A win for me didn't matter since last dp after the reveal of Aertes, so I wanted to have some fun. (Who'd lynch a survivor who's literally harmless to everyone, the most indie of all roles imo.) I wasn't gonna fight a battle that wouldn't be won. If I held back a few thoughts and ideas, it wasn't because I didn't want to engage and contribute on purpose. If anything, I saw it more beneficial to lay a bit low on certain thing, since it wouldn't have helped me.
    There was literally nothing to support this belief. No one offered a lynch, so no one would be against going with your target if you had displayed yourself to be trustworthy enough.

  4. #204
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    Assuming the game is actually called, I have a few issues with the balance I'll get to tomorrow sometime if I get chance.

  5. #205
    @Ratchet

    If you must know, yeah "fuck it, wincon lost, siding with SK since I'm the lyncher" but I wasn't gonna out myself even at that point just in case I had a chance to do something differently next DP if anything.
    I wasn't trying to punish or being spiteful as you "claim" , but I don't feel like wasting my time trying to argue that when you clearly have your way of seeing things. Plus I prefer to walk away before I actually begin to feel "annoyed"


    And yah, I didn't read your wallies btw, so if you appealed to the SK or not, don't know.
    Last edited by Itztli; Dec 25th '16 at 04:19 AM.

  6. #206
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    swordsman doctor


    is the game over?

  7. #207
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    Happy for it to end.

    I feel the unlyncher had the easiest role with full claim option. Probably survivor as well.

    Survivor wasn't against anyone so a claim of survivor would have just pretty much been a don't target me etc.
    Obviously counter claims could happena nd fake claims and that would make it a bit more interesting.

    The Unlyncher can easily start the phase of saying. X is the jester. Do not lynch them.
    This also makes the game easier for other roles cause they know 2 out of the 7 and the jester can't really do much.

    No one can really counter that I don't think, even if the jester then tried to counter claim you'd lynch the one first claiming to be unlyncher wouldn't you? and once he flips jester is confirmed. More than likely though, you'd just ignore both roles.




  8. #208
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    assassin scientist


    Quote Originally Posted by Laboon View Post
    Happy for it to end.

    I feel the unlyncher had the easiest role with full claim option. Probably survivor as well.

    Survivor wasn't against anyone so a claim of survivor would have just pretty much been a don't target me etc.
    Obviously counter claims could happena nd fake claims and that would make it a bit more interesting.

    The Unlyncher can easily start the phase of saying. X is the jester. Do not lynch them.
    This also makes the game easier for other roles cause they know 2 out of the 7 and the jester can't really do much.

    No one can really counter that I don't think, even if the jester then tried to counter claim you'd lynch the one first claiming to be unlyncher wouldn't you? and once he flips jester is confirmed. More than likely though, you'd just ignore both roles.
    Ignoring both is in favour of...guess who? Unlyncher once again!

    As FBI I felt pretty cornered too as I have already explained to Gir. I will do so in here just for discussion's sake.
    Basically, I had to try and play conservatively because a smart SK would see through it if I actively started things and would have killed me. Also, the Bomb can roleplay FBI to their hearts desire whereas I can't really do the opposite as I will be put in danger. The fact that I can't realistically push for anything during DP1 makes me start with a disadvantage against both competitive to mine roles. Finally, all claims hurt me for the same reason, because claiming means death and even if I claim Bomb and Bomb CCs me, well Bomb gets a 50/50 during the night whereas I am guaranteed a loss.
    The game of mafia is the eternal struggle between the admitted desire not to get lynched
    and the unadmitted desire not to read.

  9. #209
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    Alright, so I think the problems start with the nature of the setup. Mafia is supposed to be a game where a Pro-Town faction opposes an Anti-Town faction. As long as that fundamental rule is fulfilled, pretty much anything can be called Mafia. And as I explained to Gir during the game, the Serial is considered Anti-Town, not Independent, which is why you can have games with the Serial as the only scum in the game. The reason this is so is for the exact reason that we saw in the game - there is no reason to have anyone work with each other if everyone has their own interests to fulfil. I don't think there was any way to really make this setup work, as a result.

    Aside from that, the balance was completely shot. The Unlyncher was insanely overpowered, and just for good measure, the Jester also killed someone on their wagon, which made it all but impossible for anyone to side with them. There was no reason for the Jester to have this - the Jester didn't care what happened after they were lynched, and this did nothing but make it harder for him to achieve his wincon. A better ability would have been starting the Day with 1 vote or something, that only appeared in the vote tally on the day he was lynched. That would at least give the Jester some advantage.

    The Killer also had a raw deal. The FBI Agent was essentially just another lyncher, albeit one that didn't know its target. The Serial having unlimited kills allowed them to kill whomever they wanted to, which also would have turned the whole game against them. The Bomb had a rather easy deal on the other hand, as simply claiming FBI Agent would have resulted in at least a 50/50 chance of being shot.

    The Survivor had an easy deal too, simply needing to come forward to all but ruin the Lyncher's chances. In fairness, siding with the lyncher is easier than siding with the Jester, but still, given the nature of the game no one had any reason to want to lynch the Survivor. The only way the Lyncher could win is by coming forward and asking for people to ally with them in exchange for the Survivors identity.

    I don't think claiming was the problem either. Restricting it to hinting is just forcing arbitrary measures onto players, where it either becomes so obvious you may as well allow claiming, or so vague you might as well have done away with it entirely. I think part of the issue stems from trying to pit roles against other roles. The idea in and of itself wasn't bad, but I think the balance was missed because of it.

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