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  1. #1
    Senior Member AndrewtheAmericanDude's Avatar
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    Devil Fruit Origins: Magic or Science?

    So this is an idea I've been mulling over for a while now, it was originally going to be a general topic on the in universe science of the op world, but I decided I should tie this into a broader topic, so here goes:

    First let's talk about lineage factor. "Lineage factor" is the in universe term for DNA in the OP world. This is actually already a part of the established science of the OP world and the implications of that are already being researched. We see this with Judge, a leading scientist of the world:
    Spoiler!


    We see here that it's established that Judge is a part of a gang of scientists that include Vegapunk, and presumably Caesar as well by association. These three are likely where pretty much all the experimental developments arise. But the aforementioned instance of the Lineage Factor being addressed isn't actually the first case of it, the first comes from Caesar quite a bit earlier:
    Spoiler!


    Now I know what you're thinking lol, they didn't say "Lineage Factor" there. But I've seen different translations actually refer to it as "Lineage Factor" to the point where the One Piece Wiki even regards it as well. So if you'll bear with me here, I'd say that this basis is quite well founded, especially considering the association of this scientist group. So what are the implications of this? It seems that Devil Fruits work on a basis of modification of the Lineage Factor or DNA.

    The Devil Fruit's are not (or at least aren't only) a curse, they're a genetic modification. So while yes, devil fruits clearly operate on a level greater than ordinary understanding (like regenerating along with your clothes), there is a rhyme and reason to it and that can be harnessed. So with these discernible properties, maybe the current minds weren't the first people who had this idea, maybe they were created. These fruits aren't beyond the grasps of man, their mechanics can be understood. This gives credibility to the notion that they originally came from a tree. You know what this means. There's only one thing that would have the capacity for this, and that's the Ancient Kingdom.

    The Ancient Kingdom was said to be quite advanced, they created the Ancient Weapons after all. It seems that the current scientists are relearning that which the kingdom may have already known. Caesar might be quite versed in the weapon branch, but Judge or especially Vegapunk are probably his superiors in the genetic sense. While yes, different branches of science don't progress at a uniform rate, breakthroughs and such from various areas would likely be necessary for overall progression. So if the current minds are unable to match the Ancient Weapons of the past, it's not outlandish to reason that the kingdom's genetic capabilities were also more than capable. So if Vegapunk is stated to be 500 years ahead of the current progression, and the Ancient Kingdom was wiped out 800 years ago, it seems it took at least 1300 years for them to catch up and for the cycle to repeat. That was likely a serious dark age after the void century (or quite possibly during), and with the effects of the war, a lot was probably lost along with the kingdom.

    There could be a Biblical tie-in here with the devil fruits being some symbol for the fruits of knowledge. The Ancient Kingdom may have overstepped their bounds a bit in over-zealousness, probably not in a mean-spirited way tho I'd imagine. This might have lead to the envy of the other nations. But if they already made the Ancient Weapons, why would they also make devil fruits? Were they preparing for something big? Like SPACE TRAVEL?? Partially kidding there but I might get unhinged here and start writing on the implications of that. But yes, it seems they were stockpiling weapons or even utility which could even be the result of aimless fervor. These genetic studies may have had good intentions, and could have been an intent at some kind of technological evolution. It's hard to say, but we do know that the science of df's is already being harvested for things pacifista lasers from Kizaru's fruit. We know that S.A.D. is radioactive, maybe the original intent was an attempt to cure diseases. This could tie in to the medical science side of the world and Chopper's dream.

    The 3 main scientists and their applications of these findings:

    Caesar, the "Great Value" DF knock off brand-
    Spoiler!


    Caesar has tried to recreate the initial success of DF's with his own artificial zoans. These zoans are not perfect and can only give non-corresponding partial transformations. Caesar has grafted his own research from the findings of his contemporaries who in turn are likely inspired or derived from that of the Ancient Kingdom. He has used his limited knowledge to secure himself a seat in the new world's arms race and is probably not motivated or capable of pursuing it further.

    Judge, Devil Fruit Humans(?)-

    Alright, if you thought I wasn't crazy yet this is where i get crazy. So if DF's are genetic modifications, then what about modified humans?? These 2 "developments" are formed on the similar basis of affecting the Lineage Factor, and likely come from the same branch of research. I would say that modified humans are an alternative direction of advancement parallel to devil fruits, and it's possible that Judge attained these powers through studies of existing and documented DF's. Let's list them off:

    Ichiji- I'd say "Sparking Red" is derived from the Pika Pika no mi as they both seem to operate on a basis of light manipulation.

    Niji- "Dengeki Blue" is easy to say, it seems to be the Goro Goro no mi. Now while Enel's origins are in the sky, it is quite possible that the fruit has been on the surface before. Furthermore, with Enel's findings of the birka ancestors on the moon, I'd argue that life in the OP world might've originated on one of the orbiting moons and that contact between the different races was formerly more frequent making documentation more possible.

    Reiju- "Poison Pink" would either be the Doku Doku no mi or an as of yet unseen butterfly zoan, but I wouldn't think the latter for a reason I will state soon. Magellan and Reiju can both emit toxic mist. As seen when she kicked Smoothie, Reiju can also emit poison with more viscosity just like Magellan.

    Yonji- "Winch Green" alright now, this is a hard one lol, but I think a friend of mine has given me the crazy answer. Here goes, Bara Bara no mi, as seen when he activated his winch. Yeah, I'm serious. What's the point? Well he also can't be cut even if he probably wouldn't be cut otherwise... But no seriously I the think the potential utility gained here would be segmented mobility which he can use in conjunction with his winch. This can do things like allow him to shoot his fist out with the winch and still have an operating hand and the capacity to grasp and stuff. Separating autonomy.

    So while Caesar's findings are limited to zoans, Judge is seemingly capable of working in areas tangential to the categories of paramecia and logia.

    Now on to Vegapunk, the discoverer of the original truth-

    Vegapunk, being the top mind and colleague of the rest, likely has all of these capacities and more. By now he has probably reached the playing field that the Ancient Kingdom was on. If he wanted to, I think he might be able to create DF's. This might be something the World Government is unaware of or are pressuring him into doing for a power move. He has used his research to do his previously mentioned things like make lasers by studying Kizaru's fruit, I'd argue that he is capable of far more, and this might be his big boon. I have mentioned this in many other threads, but quite a ways back, in a SBS, Oda stated that Vegapunk was the leading mind on df's and that when he enters the story, he will reveal their secret. What could that be? We can only imagine.

    As I end off here, I will state that this gives credibility in my eyes, to the notion that Mariejois' national treasure could be a new devil fruit tree. Also I will say that while df's seem to have a scientific origin, they still seem to have somewhat of a mystical aspect with how they have "spirits" that allow them to respawn by possessing a new fruit. This could just be that they're on a higher understanding than what we know.

    Questions:
    1. Do you agree? If not, what is your alternative hypothesis and how do you substantiate it and find it to be significant to the story/world.

    2. Why would the ancient kingdom make them?

    3. What will/has Vegapunk do with his knowledge on them?

    That's all for now, thanks for reading and please tell me your thoughts.

    Spoiler!

  2. #2
    Overhaul's Avatar
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    1. That reminds me of a cover of Enel's moon adventures


    some say that flowery thing looks like a Devil Fruit, and that those might have been residents of the Ancient Kingdom.

    What if they were creating Devil Fruits and testing them on these small buggers?


    2. Maybe they were just exploring new possibilities, or maybe as a way to defend themselves? Could be that they knew about the threat the old World Government posed, and were preparing for war, creating these "fruits" as a way to fight them? Maybe they deemed the Ancient Weapons to dangerous to use, so created smaller and more controllable weapons, the "fruits".
    Later, seeing how the Ancient Kingdom was wiped out by the World Government, I wouldn't be surprised if they renamed them to "Devil Fruits". They do seem to love being named after "Celestial" or "Heavenly", so their enemy's weapons being called "Devil" would be something I could see it happening.

    3. If Vegapunk has knowledge of how to create a Devil Fruit, it's probable he might know something about their origins too. So point 2 might be explained by him later on the series
    It would make sense that he knows so much about Devil Fruits, since he weaponized sea stone and is able to weaponize Zoans and Logia's abilities.

    Maybe he's not making Devil fruits, but recreating their powers into something else? Some sort of Vinsmoke soldiers?
    What if the new Pacifistas don't have only lasers, but other kind of powers too?
    Think you know about powerscaling?
    Then come to the Tier List Thread and prove it!!




  3. #3
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    Long kind of random bit.
    Spoiler!



    So
    1. I have shown I disagree, primarily because your theory is unable to account for the clear spiritual components of the fruits. DNA manipulation should stipulate there be other factors which would come into play such as children being affected(or even sterility), and DF should offer more actual drawbacks in use. Also I would point out that we do not know how the Germa siblings draw their powers, they may simply be the raid suits themselves that grant powers(thus no genetic modification other than super strength, speed, endurance, skin, etc.

    I cannot explain them scientifically, but it seems DF users are conveyed metaphysical attributes of the fruit via the soul of the DF that resides in them. Artificial DF do not have the same complete souls, so instead they only are able to alter partially. I offer Haki(clearly spiritual) as proof of how DF powers are intrinsically spiritually based, as well as non organic weapons which have DF powers(so far zoans).

    An alternate theory might be tied to choppers mentions of "wavelengths" with his zoan transformations(and rumble ball disrupting that transformation) So using the blood stream comment, it could be that a DF is consumed and part of it remains and is absorbed into the bloodstream. While in the bloodstream(where it moves everywhere in the body) it emits waves of some kind which affect the DF user only, giving it the properties of the essence it carries. When a user awakens their fruit, they learn to enhance/expand the wavelengths. Being covered with water, or affected by seastone affects the transmitting of the wavelengths.

    2. I think you bring up a very interesting point here. I would argue that it could be quite possible that the AK is responsible for all the varieties of Humans across the world. There already is evidence that they are all essentially humans, as evidenced by half human, half fishman Dellinger, and how long legs etc crossbreed. So I would postulate that the AK was extensive in genetic engineering, and responsible for creation of fishmen, mermen, long limb tribes, third eye, giants, minks, Posieden, and likely more such as Zunishi, and sea kings. We already know that it is possible to create species in OP, as Vegapunk created dragons(which were made of flesh and blood, and promptly consumed)

    I think it is very possible that the connections you make with Germa and DFs are still relevant even if DFs are not genetically based. I think that it is possible that the AK did similar experiments and perhaps created a series of humans imbued with abnormal properties. As the AK was destroyed and those people killed they were reincarnated in a fruit, starting the DF cycle(possibly through the use of a genetically engineered tree, made scientifically). Perhaps the DF tree/s are storehouses of those lost souls and releases them into new fruits.

    I think your DF tree in Marejois is a fantastic idea!

    So AK made DFs as a last ditch effort to let their experiments continue, or perhaps as a means of giving power to overthrow the WG.

    3. I think that depends on what kind of person Vegapunk is. So far Vegapunk seems to be a good guy who works with the WG. Whether it is by choice or force is unclear. I would mainly say he will find ways to fully unlock the power and potential of DF. If DF really are souls of people, he could perhaps communicate with them. Not really sure what we can infer based on the limited information we have in this area.


    To conclude my long post. I am kind of tired, and just more of typing in reaction to the thread, throwing ideas out there(and not entirely coherent). I do not necessarily think I am right at all, just do not think DFs are genetically based. I do however think that this idea could be crucial to the origins of DFs(ie genetically affected people became DFs, but did not have the powers themselves in the same way.) I think that you made awesome connections to things I never would've thought of, and things I never noticed before(such as DF affecting bloodstream comment)
    So while I think the theory is incorrect, I see much of the components being used in the future and correct for different applications.

  4. #4
    Senior Member AndrewtheAmericanDude's Avatar
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    @Overhaul ooh that's another cool connection nice.

    Yeah maybe the ancient weapons were just huge projects for utility that were just misused and df's are another go at that.

    The df name being a slander sounds pretty likely tbh.

    Hm if he's making modified humans too, do you think that would overlap with Judge's ideas and plotline? Might take some of the pizzazz away, but you make a good point about the pacifistas. We still haven't seen a current one yet and who knows if they're much better. But that could potentially be the next route and I can get behind it. Part of the Marines building power that we've heard so much about. I like @Nekomamushi's idea about a new pacifista being based off of the corpse of Oars Jr. Everyone's obsessed with giant soldiers.


    @Gandalf that is a very thought out response, thank you. I definitely agree that the spiritual aspect is a strong core of the df's, but what I mean to say is, why do these things have to be mutually exclusive? I suppose my title is a bit clickbait-y in the sense that I make it look like pick one, but what I'm intending to do here is advocate for the potential sci-fi aspect as well. After all, if the mysticism is a tangible force, understanding has reached a level to comprehend it, and it can be empirically tested, then wouldn't it be simultaneously a part of science then? It would be another natural force of the universe. Like to get really out there for a second, a type III spacefaring civilization might not even be corporeal. A dimension as you stated, could possibly be tied to magic and that could be accessed.

    I'm not trying to remove the aspect of magic necessarily, I just think it can be quite cool to see these 2 things work in tandem, it can be compelling. This isn't needed for every story, Star Wars flopped on this when it tried to do this in the prequels (in fact this is why I love the simplicity of haki), but a cool example would be the latest Legend of Zelda, Breath of the Wild which presents a world of both magic and technology. I think the world of OP is so open that these possibilities are open and therefore it's fun to speculate on it.

    1. You make some good points and I'll try to give my take on them:

    -DF's not affecting lineage. Ok, so while it is called "Lineage Factor" the basic principle would be that it affects the individual temporarily. After all, the power leaves when the spirit leaves, and the spirit is the force that the science is operating under. I wouldn't say this crazy affect is outside of their grasps, in a world of advanced technology and magic the possibilities are endless. The capabilities of their understanding could be quite beyond ours.

    -Germa 66 powers potentially being raid suit reliant- I would use this page:
    Spoiler!


    -Non organic Objects- Ooh that's a good point. I suppose I'd say that the demonstrated cases have been zoans, which already contain the genetic make up of their respective animals to serve as a basis here. To go beyond that I think that as this theory operates under the assumption that DF spirits can be manipulated or engineered, they might also have their own make up and the genetic modification aspect could possibly only be their affects on animals.

    -Awakening- Could just be a term for gaining a higher level of skill and mastery with your df.

    Also I think the basis of artificial zoans shows that there's a basis for DF's being understood by human minds.


    2. Hm yeah that's quite possible. Do you agree with the notion that life in the OP world originated on the moon and that the birkans were the first humans? So you think the different races came artificially rather than naturally? Neat idea, so the WG trying to make giants is just another imitation lol I could get behind the df spirits being AK people

    Thanks I do think that at this point a tree makes a lot of sense for that query

    Yeah it could be their method of living on after the injustice or that potential aspect was an accident to their dismay. This is starting to turn into Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood lol

    3. Oh man Vegapunk learning to talk with the spirits of the AK would be super cool I'd love that. Yeah that's a solid idea.

    Yeah this thread is already super jumbled and incoherent thanks to my lack of formatting but a ton of cool ideas are being tossed around! I do understand your position, just a month ago I was telling someone to only think of DF's mystically but then I thought of this theory I was sitting on and I'm trying to speculate and I think there could be potential here, for some level of unity between the 2 prospects.

    Spoiler!

  5. #5
    Overhaul's Avatar
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    @Gandalf about your first point.

    Going with a Marvel quote here:
    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

    Right now we can create fire with a simple flick of an object, or a click of a button. We can turn on devices by clapping or pushing buttons / switches (tv, lights, phones). We can even create objects pretty fast (3d printer) and we have holograms already.

    Go back 1000 years ago, and all of this would be considered "magic".

    So I do not discard the option that devil fruits or other "magical elements" in the OP world are just advanced technology. Kin'emon even referred to it as magic and to Nami's weather manipulation (tech based) as Ninjutsu.

    You do bring a good point about haki, but what is it aside from a better sense? Observation is like an ultra keen instinct. Armament is a technique to harden your body. Conquerors is an extraordinary will to bypass and conquer everything by all means.
    While some of this aspects may seem more spiritual, I wouldn't discard them being tech based, or even existing together. One may not exclude the other.

    While DNA is passed down to other generations, there's also key, unique features in each of our DNA. My DNA is not the exact same as my father's, there's a few differences. So even if a Devil Fruit is a tool to mutate one DNA, it does not mean it will be hereditary.

    It can even work like a virus, that upon the host dying, it changes hosts (into a fruit in this case).

    As for your point about the "soul", objects have no souls. Therefore, there's a gap in how Vegapunk was able to feed DFs to weapons.
    There's also the fact that Vegapunk was able to extract Kizaru's powers and apply it into Pacifistas. Did he extract part of Kizaru's soul, then? It's really hard to say and it doesn't really rule out the scientific aspect of it, imo.

    @AndrewtheAmericanDude
    I guess that if Vegapunk were to do it, it would be a much more successful version of it. So far his altered clones are already a better version than Judge's clone army. They're extra resistant too like the Vinsmokes, altho the Vinsmokes are due to an exoskeleton which may not be of cybernetic origins.
    Judge was only able to apply it by actually creating new life and altering it, while Vepagunk seems to be able to do it on a grown man.

    I mean, Vegapunk even made Momonosuke's DF, a "failure", but that actually allows Momonosuke to fully transform into it and not only partially do it, so even in that field he was more successful than Caesar. And he did use the Lineage Factor that he discovered along Judge to do it
    Think you know about powerscaling?
    Then come to the Tier List Thread and prove it!!




  6. #6
    Senior Member AndrewtheAmericanDude's Avatar
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    @Overhaul this is kinda going off the path, but as far as objects having souls, spiritualities may differ. Especially in Japan, even some water in a glass can be considered "divine." So this may be irrelevant, but these differences in ideologies could be relevant here, with this having the potential to also run on that logic.

    Hm so you think the pacifistas are superior to Judge's tech? What are the distinctions between the main modified humans and clones? One of the Germa siblings could certainly beat a pretime skip pacifista. Though it's quote possible that they've been improved. Even the clones' military might was coveted by Big Mom.

    But going off the logic that the modified humans and pacifistas could be based off the same branch, are the siblings possibly a glimpse into what is to come? Could Vegapunk make some seriously tough dudes? It'd make sense with the great enlistment and all lol. Maybe vice admiral positions get filled with genetic experiments. I like Gandalf's idea that maybe even accidentally, the df's mechanic of respawning with a spirit and all mean the fruits are connected with the fallen people of the ancient kingdom. Maybe creating df's was a mistake. But from Vegapunk's position, he could just cut out the middleman and make a superhero from birth.

    Ooh good point. Momomosuke's fruit seems really solid. I can only imagine that it falls short in some way but I doubt it's in any easily foreseeable way. Why do you think it's a failure? I think when I first read it I assumed Vega was trying to recreate a western dragon zoan and accidentally made an eastern one lol. Maybe it's unstable or limits his stamina more or something.

    Spoiler!

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