View Poll Results: How Strong is the Shogun?

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  1. #1
    The Real "L" Spiegel's Avatar
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    Is The Shogun First Mate level or Above?

    I've had this debate with a few people and I wanted to bring it to this forum to get everyone else's opinion.


    The simple question is, How strong will The Shogun be?


    I'm more inclined to believe that The Shogun is quite strong. Imo, First Mate level or higher.

    I don't believe he's a figurehead that lacks battle strength as Spandam did. I would put the Emperor or Empress in that category.


    1. Brook hyped that the marines would not set foot on Wano because of the strength of the samurai.




    2. Akainu is hesistant to send Borsalino to Wano because of the unknown strength of Wano's Army + Samurai



    3. The Shogun has been compared to The Pirate King in the past.




    The Pirate King is the strongest in the blue seas, The Shogun the strongest of Wano?

    4. Mere retainers of a single daimyo is strong enough to stalemate a Yonkou Commander. And they didn't use their ultimate form against Jack? How much stronger are they in their Sulong Forms?








    There are multiple Daimyos with Retainers in Wano. Imagine the retainers of The Leader of Wano! Now Imagine the leader of Wano's strength compared to his retainers.

    5. The Shogun & Kaidou are under a partnership




    Kaidou would have to acknowledge the strength of not only the Shogun but also the samurai if he decided to partner with them.


    So opinions? How strong do you believe the Shogun is?

  2. #2
    AppleCider's Avatar
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    Shogun should be the strongest and toughest challenge for Zoro to fight and win. So i vote at least Yonko Top Commander level

  3. #3
    Overhaul's Avatar
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    Between Yonko Commander and Top Yonko Commander. Either one or the other

    Your 3rd point doesn't really confirm anything. Hody also said something like "I'll become the King of the Seas" while Luffy then boasted "You can't, because I'll become Pirate King!" or something like that. And few other situations like when Enel said he was god and Luffy said he'll come Pirate King (iirc), so does that mean pirate king > god? Not necessarily.

    Momonosuke was just boasting and elevating the Shogun title as being as important as PK, at least for him. Doesn't mean it's as powerful.

    1st and 2nd point, I'd say that the main issue is the lack of knowledge of the marines in this regard, since Wano is so isolated. Akainu can't risk sending an Admiral like he did with Issho in Dressrosa where there's potential 2 Yonkos and another mighty military force there. And Issho still "faced" a Shichibukai on par (or almost) with a Yonko Commander, and 2 other Yonko Commanders (of different levels) opponents. And Luffy. And Zoro. And Law.

    All of these would be enough to tackle some Yonko Commanders.

    5th, does not necessarily speak about the Shogun strength. Law and Luffy are also "under a partnership" yet from what we've seen, Luffy has eclipsed Law.
    Like Law and Luffy's alliance, Kaido alliance with the Shogun could clearly have an end goal. We do know he intended to get someone to decypher the road poneglyph, so maybe keeping Wano under his toe thanks to a "minister" to control Wano samurais and their military might could be a potential strategy, that wouldn't weaken Kaido's forces unlike if he were to subdue them by force.


    4th point, the Kozuki family is unique, as the masons of the poneglyphs. There's no saying other families carry such importance and have such strong retainers among them.
    Think you know about powerscaling?
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Cockycent's Avatar
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    I've been asking this for a while now. Not really about power levels, but more about the position. Is he Spandam or Lucci? Lucci was the leader due to strength. That was why they followed him after the loss at Ennies Lobby. Spandam was more of a figurehead, but still caling the shots. Both are possible. He can be a schemer who is manipulating Kaido or both strong and manipulating Kaido
    Casual: OP is just power levels

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  5. #5
    Gir's Avatar
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    *Takes all of his chips and places them on...*

    Spandam level. Like Cocky said.

    Yeah, there's nothing that indicates Shogun is the strong one. True, he commands probably the world's strongest military, but the evidence points out to Shogun being a power hungry coward. He was threatened by Oden and he allowed Kaido into Wano.

    Furthermore, Feudal Japan had a strict inheritance policy regarding the Shogun position AND they had a history of weak Shoguns that inherited the position from strong fathers that got puppeted by opportunistic warlords.

    This Shogun is going to be everything a Shogun shouldn't be. So that Momo could overcome him and become the shogun Wano needs.

  6. #6
    The Real "L" Spiegel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    Between Yonko Commander and Top Yonko Commander. Either one or the other

    Your 3rd point doesn't really confirm anything. Hody also said something like "I'll become the King of the Seas" while Luffy then boasted "You can't, because I'll become Pirate King!" or something like that. And few other situations like when Enel said he was god and Luffy said he'll come Pirate King (iirc), so does that mean pirate king > god? Not necessarily.
    Except, Wano is not Fishman Island or Enel who's not even recognized by anyone in the New World. Fishman island was never regarded for it's strength, it has been under the protection of a Yonkou for a very long time. Wano is prosperous without the help of The WG.

    Wano, however, has been regarded as being so strong that The Marines deter from going anywhere near it because of how terrifyingly strong the "samurai" are. This was mentioned before even Kaidou was said to be situated in Wano.
    The Title of Shogun has more weight than either because of one, it being a new world island, two it being a prosperous new world island with legendary strength. Neither of those two islands have the same hype.

    Momonosuke was just boasting and elevating the Shogun title as being as important as PK, at least for him. Doesn't mean it's as powerful.
    Except all signs point to it being an esteemed position, the military leader of one of the strongest countries in the New World that has power over the Emperor and the country's Samurai are strong enough to deter even the WG who encapsulates all the marines, Cp Units, etc.

    1st and 2nd point, I'd say that the main issue is the lack of knowledge of the marines in this regard, since Wano is so isolated. Akainu can't risk sending an Admiral like he did with Issho in Dressrosa where there's potential 2 Yonkos and another mighty military force there. And Issho still "faced" a Shichibukai on par (or almost) with a Yonko Commander, and 2 other Yonko Commanders (of different levels) opponents. And Luffy. And Zoro. And Law.
    Yeah but the lack of knowledge is telling of Wano's strength. It's safe to assume that in the past, The WG tried their hand in conquering or arriving on Wano and they were met by the force of Samurai that completely deterred their conquest. And it wasn't just a pat on the hand, The WG decided not to even try to conquer/go near it again.

    If Brook knows of Wano's strength then many people in the New World are definitely familiar with a past event that happened between Wano and The WG.

    Akainu spoke specifically about Wano's Samurai in that panel. He knows of Big Mom and Kaidou's Forces. Though Wano's strength is unknown, his wariness is based on past efforts by the WG to conquer Wano possibly.

  7. #7
    The Real "L" Spiegel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cockycent View Post
    I've been asking this for a while now. Not really about power levels, but more about the position. Is he Spandam or Lucci? Lucci was the leader due to strength. That was why they followed him after the loss at Ennies Lobby. Spandam was more of a figurehead, but still caling the shots. Both are possible. He can be a schemer who is manipulating Kaido or both strong and manipulating Kaido
    I'd bet for both those options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gir View Post
    *Takes all of his chips and places them on...*

    Spandam level. Like Cocky said.

    Yeah, there's nothing that indicates Shogun is the strong one. True, he commands probably the world's strongest military, but the evidence points out to Shogun being a power hungry coward. He was threatened by Oden and he allowed Kaido into Wano.

    Furthermore, Feudal Japan had a strict inheritance policy regarding the Shogun position AND they had a history of weak Shoguns that inherited the position from strong fathers that got puppeted by opportunistic warlords.

    This Shogun is going to be everything a Shogun shouldn't be. So that Momo could overcome him and become the shogun Wano needs.
    I'll just say, Shell NO.

    Imo, The Emperor/Empress will most likely be the Spandem Level Character of Wano. The Emperor being the puppet and the face of wano while the shogun actually working within the shadows of the country, controlling everything.

    And you're right about the history of the shoguns however, not all of the shoguns were passed down from lineage. There were times when rebel leaders would seize the current shogun's power and become the shogun.

    Imo, The Shogun and his force will have to be incredibly strong to deter outside factions from assassinating him. I wouldn't call him a coward, he, just as Kaidou, has a reason for his alliance. The borders are still closed.

    You want to bet on this? :

    I bet the shogun is not a figurehead. Give me all of your money.

  8. #8
    Yomi's Avatar
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    I put my chips with Gir and Cocky there is nothing that proves Shogun is decided by strength. In the traditional sense its decided by blood. He is merely a ruler, and if Inu and Neko are merely retainers, and they can each take Kaido's right hand in base I dont see any kind of strength hierarchy in Wano.

    Tbh I would love it if for once we simply got a weak villain who was just smart and knew how to organize his forces like a chessboard, but I suppose that probably wouldn't work the way OP is written. imo if you want strength in Wano then look to whoever is the shogun's right hand. That guy will probably be the best samurai in Wano
    Last edited by Yomi; Jul 11th '18 at 03:09 AM.
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  9. #9
    The Real "L" Spiegel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yomi View Post
    I put my chips with Gir and Cocky there is nothing that proves Shogun is decided by strength. In the traditional sense its decided by blood. He is merely a ruler, and if Inu and Neko are merely retainers, and they can each take Kaido's right hand in base I dont see any kind of strength hierarchy in Wano.
    The first Shogun was appointed by the Emperor subsequently, the following Shogun were appointed based on lineage. However, that was not always the case. There were times when the Shogun was overthrown by a Rebel Leader who then became the Shogun. If the Shogun lacked strength, he was simply overthrown. If the shogun was weak, people would've overthrown him by now.

    The fact that retainers are able to stalemate a calamity goes to show that more individuals like them are present in Wano.


    Tbh I would love it if for once we simply got a weak villain who was just smart and knew how to organize his forces like a chessboard, but I suppose that probably wouldn't work the way OP is written. imo if you want strength in Wano then look to whoever is the shogun's right hand. That guy will probably be the best samurai in Wano
    Don't count on it, but I wouldn't mind that the right hand man who protects the Shogun is actually strongest but..imo, The Shogun has already been hyped to be one of the main antagonist of Wano. Spandam was seen as a more comical villain so him being weak went along with his character type.

    The Shogun is brutal, cunning, and apparently he has wano in the palm of his hands with the exception of The Kozuki Clan and Stray Samurai Allies. Just can't imagine him being weak. Definitely cunning, and level headed but weak? Shuck no.

    I'm willing to bet beli that he's not Spandam level.

  10. #10
    Yomi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiegel View Post
    The first Shogun was appointed by the Emperor subsequently, the following Shogun were appointed based on lineage. However, that was not always the case. There were times when the Shogun was overthrown by a Rebel Leader who then became the Shogun. If the Shogun lacked strength, he was simply overthrown. If the shogun was weak, people would've overthrown him by now.

    The fact that retainers are able to stalemate a calamity goes to show that more individuals like them are present in Wano.



    Don't count on it, but I wouldn't mind that the right hand man who protects the Shogun is actually strongest but..imo, The Shogun has already been hyped to be one of the main antagonist of Wano. Spandam was seen as a more comical villain so him being weak went along with his character type.

    The Shogun is brutal, cunning, and apparently he has wano in the palm of his hands with the exception of The Kozuki Clan and Stray Samurai Allies. Just can't imagine him being weak. Definitely cunning, and level headed but weak? Shuck no.

    I'm willing to bet beli that he's not Spandam level.
    Wasnt it said that the shogun runs to Kaido at the first sign of trouble
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