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  1. #1
    AppleCider's Avatar
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    Just how strong could fighters without devil fruits be?

    Everyone is wondering how Luffy would defeat Kaido and are suggesting various things such as Haki powerups, Gear 5, Awakening, Nightmare + G4 etc. Those are all fine but they all focus on enhancing Luffy's DF powers even more.

    We also see that DFs have a lot of versatility and deadliness due to the users' mastery but this ignores one key concept:

    There are also a lot of strong fighters who are strong without their devil fruits.

    Take a look at Garp. He's an Admiral level Marine who fought legends like Roger, Whitebeard, Shiki multiple times in the past. He smashed Prime Chinjao and forced him into retirement with moderate difficulty. He even defeated the captain of a legendary crew that had Kaido and Big Mom as crew members.

    So just how strong could these fighters be without devil fruits? How could they counteract Awakening and advanced Devil Fruit techniques? Is it through advanced Haki? What else?

    I am always interested in how brute force physical strength alone accomplishes things. In Naruto, Guy severely damaged Madara with Juubi powers just through advanced brute force physical strength. Devil Fruits and jutsus give a supernatural element so a physical aspect would be nice.

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    I think the true strength, no matter what, is Haki, devil fruit or no.

    That said, I think that people can always acknowledge that a DF makes someone stronger. For instance, if Garp right now ate a fruit that doesn't affect the way he fights, he would gain a straight power up. I'm thinking of something like the Noro Noro no Mi or the Hobby Hobby no Mi. He's still Garp the Fist, but with extra powers. However, I think a Logia, Zoan, or transformation paramecia like Luffy's have a learning curve that would negatively affect his power level until he learned them. But after learning, he should be stronger.

    And I feel like if Garp became an admiral the WG would give him a top tier fruit lol

  4. #3
    BTR's Avatar
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    martialarts navigator


    Roger didn't have a Devil Fruit (that we know of), and he was the strongest pirate ever.

    Still the Hero.

    "Ideas Never Die..."

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    Senior Member Cockycent's Avatar
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    I can be wrong, but I think Shank's crew might be DF less
    Casual: OP is just power levels

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  6. #5
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    assassin entertainer


    As for the main topic, I sometimes like to imagine how far Luffy would have gotten in the OP World without the Rubber Paramecia. Just with his normal strength.

    And even though I think the lack of his rubber fruit would affect him greatly, I also think it would mean he'd have to develop a better fighting style. One that didn't depend on him trying to tank every hit coming his way thinking he'd tank it because he's rubber.

    He'd probably adopt a sword as part of his fighting style like Shanks, or both a sword and a flintlock like Roger, or even just a pipe like Sabo, Ace and Luffy used as kids.

    He would most likely fail in many arcs if he didn't use some smarts or gadgets too. In Skypiea he'd have to take advantage of Wiper's seastone to use on Enel, and probably use dials to absorb and redirect Enel's attacks.

    In Enies Lobby, he'd probably have to learn how to use Soru without Gear 2 and maybe some other techniques like Zoro and Sanji developped.

    The difference is that he'd probably have to train throughout the manga and / or be craftier/smarter and not just rely on his DF powers and battle smarts to push through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    I think the true strength, no matter what, is Haki, devil fruit or no.

    That said, I think that people can always acknowledge that a DF makes someone stronger. For instance, if Garp right now ate a fruit that doesn't affect the way he fights, he would gain a straight power up. I'm thinking of something like the Noro Noro no Mi or the Hobby Hobby no Mi. He's still Garp the Fist, but with extra powers. However, I think a Logia, Zoan, or transformation paramecia like Luffy's have a learning curve that would negatively affect his power level until he learned them. But after learning, he should be stronger.

    And I feel like if Garp became an admiral the WG would give him a top tier fruit lol
    I somewhat disagree that a Logia and a Zoan, or even the Rubber paramecia would affect Garp's strength. A hybrid zoan transformation increases the strength of the user, it does not diminish it. Unless he starts making techniques up like Kaku did in the middle of a battle, then it's an improvement. And even though Kaku made some techniques up, they didn't really prejudice him.

    Sabo showed us that an experienced fighter that just got a Logia upgrade can have great benefits from the intangibility perk, and easily learn how to use the Logia powers along with their own (notice that I didn't mention Tashigi but someone a few tiers above her)

    Then a Paramecia, Garp getting the Rubber paramecia would give him the ability to resist blunt hits. As long as he didn't try to improvise in battle, he could still use his own strength while benefiting from the Rubber paramecia immunity to blunt hits.

    And that applies to other DFs as well. It will always just depend on how the user uses them, and as we all know, every DF has its own strength and weaknesses.
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  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhaul View Post
    As for the main topic, I sometimes like to imagine how far Luffy would have gotten in the OP World without the Rubber Paramecia. Just with his normal strength.

    And even though I think the lack of his rubber fruit would affect him greatly, I also think it would mean he'd have to develop a better fighting style. One that didn't depend on him trying to tank every hit coming his way thinking he'd tank it because he's rubber.

    He'd probably adopt a sword as part of his fighting style like Shanks, or both a sword and a flintlock like Roger, or even just a pipe like Sabo, Ace and Luffy used as kids.

    He would most likely fail in many arcs if he didn't use some smarts or gadgets too. In Skypiea he'd have to take advantage of Wiper's seastone to use on Enel, and probably use dials to absorb and redirect Enel's attacks.

    In Enies Lobby, he'd probably have to learn how to use Soru without Gear 2 and maybe some other techniques like Zoro and Sanji developped.

    The difference is that he'd probably have to train throughout the manga and / or be craftier/smarter and not just rely on his DF powers and battle smarts to push through.


    I somewhat disagree that a Logia and a Zoan, or even the Rubber paramecia would affect Garp's strength. A hybrid zoan transformation increases the strength of the user, it does not diminish it. Unless he starts making techniques up like Kaku did in the middle of a battle, then it's an improvement. And even though Kaku made some techniques up, they didn't really prejudice him.

    Sabo showed us that an experienced fighter that just got a Logia upgrade can have great benefits from the intangibility perk, and easily learn how to use the Logia powers along with their own (notice that I didn't mention Tashigi but someone a few tiers above her)

    Then a Paramecia, Garp getting the Rubber paramecia would give him the ability to resist blunt hits. As long as he didn't try to improvise in battle, he could still use his own strength while benefiting from the Rubber paramecia immunity to blunt hits.

    And that applies to other DFs as well. It will always just depend on how the user uses them, and as we all know, every DF has its own strength and weaknesses.
    Garp would still be strong no doubt whatever fruit he ate. But what I'm saying is, from what we know, a fruit that changes your body has a learning curve that can temporarily affect your power level while you figure it out. Kaku could have been just as strong in his human form, but he decided to fight Zoro in his giraffe and hybrid forms, which while giving him a significant boost to the abilities he already had, was clunky for him, and ultimately cost him the fight. Sabo is an even better example, and I'm glad you brought him up. We can see what his Ryosoken techniques could do to the coliseum, and we don't know if he could have collapsed the coliseum w/o the mera mera no mi, but his dragon claw definitely got a power boost from it. However, he himself acknowledged during the fight with Fujitora that his powers were out of control, that he was more vulnerable because of being a logia now, and until he mastered that someone like a marine admiral is out of his league. So his raw strength is up, but his combat prowess is down overall because of inexperience. I believe that w/o the Mera Mera no Mi, his ability to stall Fujitora here would have been about the same or better, but that with the Mera Mera no Mi he will eventually be able to 1v1 Fujitora.

    It's like training a soldier in hand-to-hand combat for 20 years and then giving him an M-16. It's definitely a power boost, but until they learn to use it, it could be a liability despite the raw increase in power. They trade the combat prowess they've experienced before for power, knowing that they can surpass their previous combat prowess with further experience.
    Last edited by Milo; Nov 6th '18 at 12:28 PM.

  8. #7
    Overhaul's Avatar
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    assassin entertainer


    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    Garp would still be strong no doubt whatever fruit he ate. But what I'm saying is, from what we know, a fruit that changes your body has a learning curve that can temporarily affect your power level while you figure it out. Kaku could have been just as strong in his human form, but he decided to fight Zoro in his giraffe and hybrid forms, which while giving him a significant boost to the abilities he already had, was clunky for him, and ultimately cost him the fight. Sabo is an even better example, and I'm glad you brought him up. We can see what his Ryosoken techniques could do to the coliseum, and we don't know if he could have collapsed the coliseum w/o the mera mera no mi, but his dragon claw definitely got a power boost from it. However, he himself acknowledged during the fight with Fujitora that his powers were out of control, that he was more vulnerable because of being a logia now, and until he mastered that someone like a marine admiral is out of his league. So his raw strength is up, but his combat prowess is down overall because of inexperience. I believe that w/o the Mera Mera no Mi, his ability to stall Fujitora here would have been about the same or better, but that with the Mera Mera no Mi he will eventually be able to 1v1 Fujitora.

    It's like training a soldier in hand-to-hand combat for 20 years and then giving him an M-16. It's definitely a power boost, but until they learn to use it, it could be a liability despite the raw increase in power. They trade the combat prowess they've experienced before for power, knowing that they can surpass their previous combat prowess with further experience.
    I doubt his giraffe form cost him the fight. If anything, it gave him more of a chance. It was his neck strength that was pushing Zoro back, not his standard sword technique. His neck rankyaku was packing more power than all of the slashes he did before. Zoro needed to create Asura to take Kaku in his giraffe form down, not Kaku in his human form. That goes to show how the Zoan fruit complemented his power, not cost him the fight.
    However, it was mentioned that had he gotten more experience beforehand with the fruit, he would have been much stronger than he was at the moment Zoro fought him. Does not mean he wasn't stronger than he was before eating the fruit already . Fukuro even commented that his doriki levels were 10 points inferior to Jyabura but thanks to him eating the DF he would have to reevaluate it.

    As for Sabo, he said that he wasn't used to his logia powers and thus he kept on making needless destruction and trying to dodge things he didn't need to. He never said he was more vulnerable.
    Spoiler!

    Him needing to master the mera to be able to compete with an admiral does not mean he could compete with Issho already without the fruit. On the contrary, it points that if he improves the power he got, he would be able to match the admiral. It does not point that his power decreased, but that it still had more room to improve.

    You say that without the Mera Mera he could have stalled Issho the same or better, but how would he dodge the gravity attack Issho used on him without the mera like he did?
    Spoiler!

    Furthermore, we saw how he used the mera to completely wipe out Burgess. And he was using the dragon fingers technique too, but the mera mera further improved and boosted his attacks.


    The comparison you make is a very bad one. It's like saying to give a gun to Zoro when he never used one. A more suitable comparison would be to give Luffy some fist knuckles that can improve his combat abilities.
    Of course, this also depends on the fruits in question. We can't expect a guy that can't aim for shit to do well instantly with a fruit that requires aiming and top notch precision, like, say, Kizaru's fruit.
    But then again, the fruit can be used to suit other fighting styles, like he did by using light-speed kicks, teleporting and creating light sabers.

    That's why I used examples that relied on experienced fighters who used the fruits to complement their fighting style. Unlike Tashigi.
    Think you know about powerscaling?
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  9. #8
    The Shining Hero Super Croc's Avatar
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    Guy had to literally kill himself to damage Madara xD

    And Shanks might as well be at the top of the world now, lacking both an arm and a Devil Fruit.


    Fact: Oda will never introduce a character as useless as Kyuin.

  10. #9
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    Guys who don't use DFs can become just as strong as anyone else, but I do think it's more difficult. Your body must be incredibly strong. I don't necessarily think your Haki has to be stronger than a DF user's, but the strength the person possesses has to be able to match the benefits a DF gives.

    It probably leads to less versatility, though. But given that there are so many fighting styles in OP, I think that makes up for some of it.

    - All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain -
    Spoiler!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekomamushi View Post
    Guys who don't use DFs can become just as strong as anyone else, but I do think it's more difficult. Your body must be incredibly strong. I don't necessarily think your Haki has to be stronger than a DF user's, but the strength the person possesses has to be able to match the benefits a DF gives.

    It probably leads to less versatility, though. But given that there are so many fighting styles in OP, I think that makes up for some of it.
    I mean, Vergo and Garp are exceptions, but most people that are strong w/o a Devil fruit are a weapons user of some kind like Ben Beckmann or Mihawk

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