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  1. #18961
    Stoned ICEMAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Back from a 1 month break.
    Zoro end opponent either is a yonko commander(Shilliew) or a shichibukai(Mihawk) at the end. Both are under an admiral no matter how much of that Mihawk hype people want to drink. So that idea that Zoro(or sanji) has to match an admiral at the end is speculation

    Using cheap shot and 2vs1 as a way to prove vast superiority is ridicoulous. especially with devil fruit. Give Sugar a cheap shot and sh wins. That does not make her upper-top
    Aokiji is not Sugar.
    There's no escaping Sugar's, as shown in the manga. Aokiji's power on the other hand, can be stopped, as shown by Whitebeard and Doflamingo.

    Now regarding Zoro, there's going to be a final war, and Luffy's top two fighters will be fighting an admiral, just like Whitebeard's top commanders. Except in this coming war, Zoro and Sanji will be able to hold their own against an admiral. No cheap shots, because that's how Zoro and Sanji fights.

    A powerful swordsman admiral was introduced for a reason, and he's probably going to be Zoro's opponent before Mihawk or vice Versa.

    Shiliew being Zoro's final opponent, is not going to be a step up, it's more like a step down.
    Plus that's a waste of Mihawk's epic speech, from the early chapters.

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    It seems that the fundamental issue is who are the strawhats EoS fights. I agree with Iceman. The M3 EoS fights are the admirals.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pirate Prince View Post
    In order to avoid going off-topic, i'd reply here

    For the Doflamingo page, i was talking about this one: https://www.opbforums.com/manga/One-...ter-747/page-6
    Now you saying if he could have succeeded or not is pure baseless speculation on your part, but fact remain that Oda left this sentence and it was left for a reason.
    It really is not, at worst my statement was an educated guess. If you think that just because a character saying something bad ass means it can be accomplished, what about the very next page? https://www.opbforums.com/manga/One-...ter-747/page-7


    Jack isn't as mobile as Doflamingo, but his reaction speed is certainly up there with him. In human form, Jack could keep up with Nekomamushi who is even more mobile a fighter as Doflamingo from what i've seen. And he is certainly not lacking in defense considering the dude is portrayed as a tank actually for fighting the strongest minks in rotation for 5days and never receiving a single scrath, fighting 2admirals off-panel right after and coming out only with bandages and tanking an island size attack from Zunisha and being relatively fine straight afterwards. As for haki feats, the fight against the minks happened off-panel, most likely because Oda didn't want to reveal too much, but i have no doubt he is a haki master. Pekoms is a haki user and he is portrayed around Pedro's level, both below Nekomamushi, so i have no doubt in my mind that Nekomamushi is a haki user himself. And so is Jack then. It should be a given that they are haki users and it's probably another reason why Oda didn't bother show everything for now until Jack actually gets his fight in real time this time.
    I have no idea how you can deduce Neko mobility; but, Doflamingo demonstrated great mobility, reflexes, and speed time and again. Based on the manga, I think it's clear Doflamingo's mobility is superior.
    I think you meant stamina, not tank. If he did not have a single scratch, then natural he never got hit, thus he did not tank an attack. I give credit for tanking Zunisha.
    Jack probably has haki. However, Doflamingo's haki thus far > Jack's haki that is probable to have, and can't rank.


    I'm still not convinced Doflamingo is superior to Jozu. I think at best they are in the same range of power and Jozu could overcome Kuzan's defense and could fight him for a while before being distracted. That suggest to me that Jozu should at the very least be capable to give an admiral between mid and high difficulty and Marco is portrayed as stronger than him. He could even overpower Kizaru in a straight up clash, could take a punch from Garp with minor bruise and was the only commander they never managed to incapacitate even with help and blocked by sea stone
    In the manga, I think their fight lasted two panels. Him hitting Jozu, then getting defeated. No idea how long it lasted. So, your being very liberal with the use of a "while".
    The fact Aokiji beat him with one unnamed attack demonstrates that Jozu was no where near forcing an admiral to mid and high difficulty.
    I give credit to Marco for not going down; but he himself demonstrated he could not hurt an admiral. So, he is far from them.

    I think the main issue here comes from the fact that people already imaginally concepted admirals as some type of godly figure that they think anyone below them would be crushed. I don't think so and the manga progression doesn't go that way
    I disagree; the only yonkou crew shown thus far demonstrated there was a tremendous gap in power between the yonkou's (who were equal to admiral) and their top 3 commanders. The top 3 commanders have demonstrated that they are not threats to admirals.


  3. #18963
    FireAngeL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Zoro end opponent either is a yonko commander(Shilliew) or a shichibukai(Mihawk) at the end. Both are under an admiral no matter how much of that Mihawk hype people want to drink. So that idea that Zoro(or sanji) has to match an admiral at the end is speculation
    Oda hyped the fight between Zoro and Mihawk since 18 Years ago. It'd be hell lot of let down if it just doesn't happen. Mihawk was remembered by Whitebeard for his Rivalry with Shanks a Yonko now. Shanks' primary weapon of use is a Sword. Mihawk is the World's Greatest Swordman. Oda called Mihawk, WB and Shanks Legends.

    Shanks

  4. #18964
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    swordsman doctor


    @ShichiDrewKai @Cutty Flam

    Back early this year, there was a discussion about this thread getting congested. With the Mafia and OPD Discussion Threads being closed due to volume and restored with a version 2, could we do the same with the Tier List Thread?

    It was suggested previously that having two threads, one for tier list placements and one for discussion, may be a good idea for volume control. Anyways, let us know what you think.

  5. #18965
    Senior Member desa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICEMAN View Post
    Aokiji is not Sugar.
    Sure. He just have a powerful devil fruit like many of the strong of this world. Those that one mistake can be fatal. For example Whithebeard lost a half his face despite being the surprise attacker.

    Hell, Zoro got tossed by Kaku thanks to him being distracted and he didn't even have a dangerous devil fruit or the advantage of being stronger than Zoro.
    There's no escaping Sugar's, as shown in the manga. Aokiji's power on the other hand, can be stopped, as shown by Whitebeard and Doflamingo.
    For Whithebeard it was mentionned Kuzan himself mentioned vibration cannot be frozen.
    For Doflamingo it is pretty obvious Kuzan was giving him a warning shot.

    I hope you remember that the idea isn't that commanders are as strong as the admirals but rather that they aren't the scrubs you want to portrayed them as.

    Now regarding Zoro, there's going to be a final war and Luffy's top two fighters will be fighting an admiral
    Zoro final fight is not going to be an admiral.
    He either fight that guy he has been chasing during the whole manga(Mihawk the shichibukai) or the guy that defeated him( which narratively can only be Shilliew).

    Plus you don't even know when that will be. You criticize people for hyping the shit out of the characters yet you want us to base Zoro's current ranking to a potential fight that he may do in 8-10 years.
    just like Whitebeard's top commanders.
    Except in this coming war they will be plenty of people. Like Smokey, Sabo, the alliances, some supernovas. An actual war that means that they we'll be plenty to do and the admirals won't have to be defeated 1 on 1 or by a strawhat.

    No cheap shots, because that's how Zoro and Sanji fights.
    Cheap shot being when Joz punched Aokiji when he was facing Whitebeard? Because Sanji did the same to Vergo about Tashigi.

    A powerful swordsman admiral was introduced for a reason, and he's probably going to be Zoro's opponent before Mihawk or vice Versa.
    Fujitora took a place in the system to change it. He is not going to be the one defending it when it comes crubling down from the truth.

    Shiliew being Zoro's final opponent, is not going to be a step up, it's more like a step down.
    Plus that's a waste of Mihawk's epic speech, from the early chapters.
    So you want Mihawk? Still a shichibukai as final opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeyes View Post
    It seems that the fundamental issue is who are the strawhats EoS fights. I agree with Iceman. The M3 EoS fights are the admirals.
    Luffy is possibly taking Akainu.
    But do you honstely believe that Zoro last fight will be someone else than Mihawk(or whoever defeat him)?

    In the manga, I think their fight lasted two panels. Him hitting Jozu, then getting defeated. No idea how long it lasted. So, your being very liberal with the use of a "while".
    There's him punching Aokiji. Both fighting. Aokiji freezing Jozu while he is distracted. Jozu defeated. a little space between each.
    The fact Aokiji beat him with one unnamed attack demonstrates that Jozu was no where near forcing an admiral to mid and high difficulty.
    None of the parties were hal-assing the war. If he did not deal with Jozu until he was distracted it's because he could not.
    I give credit to Marco for not going down; but he himself demonstrated he could not hurt an admiral. So, he is far from them.
    It's not like they hurt him either. Kizaru seemed to have assess he was too much trouble for conventional mean and used a combo of surprise, tag-teaming and seastone. Pretty sure that take care of everyone.

    I disagree; the only yonkou crew shown thus far demonstrated there was a tremendous gap in power between the yonkou's (who were equal to admiral) and their top 3 commanders. The top 3 commanders have demonstrated that they are not threats to admirals.
    I would say big rather than tremendous.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireAngeL View Post
    Oda hyped the fight between Zoro and Mihawk since 18 Years ago. It'd be hell lot of let down if it just doesn't happen. Mihawk was remembered by Whitebeard for his Rivalry with Shanks a Yonko now. Shanks' primary weapon of use is a Sword. Mihawk is the World's Greatest Swordman. Oda called Mihawk, WB and Shanks Legends.
    1- I do consider the possibility Zoro fight Mihawk.
    2-Whitebeard was being nostalgic. Talking history from a decade ago. Shanks friendship with Buggy(something that ended a long time ago) was even part of it.
    3-If you consider Shanks weaker than Mihawk than I don't mind.

  6. #18966
    Senior Member Bambino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuryuaa View Post
    Next week Doflamingo drops from Top Tier to Upper High Tier
    Agreed.

    Doflamingo isn't Top Tier. The Low Top threshold is reserved for Yonko Top commanders. People who individually are strong enough themselves to be nuisance to an Admiral. Hence why Jack led his mission to confront DD's transportation ship. I guarantee he hoped to use the distraction he would create to free DD. His upset came from the sheer difference in forces added by 1 additional potential Admiral level fighter.

    BIG MUM sent in Cracker who is 'supposed' to be one step ahead of DD NOT the same f*cking level. It is beyond redundant and a complete waste of resources to have someone equally as strong as the dude who was beat days before. MUM wouldn't do this unless she was senile. Brulee and King were supposed to separate and entrap each SH in a covert operation as none were aware of how the forest operated. Cracker was to be the muscle to ensure Luffy didn't step out of line since a Yonko's intelligence demands the idea of curbing the possibility of 'What if' If this is not the case we have a Yonko underestimating the power of Luffy AFTER the fact they acknowledged it. That would be terrible writing almost comparable to the same mistake DD did AFTER saying he won't understimate SH/Law. Talk the mangaka wringing the life out of a concept.


    Neko/Inu/Weevil are the fringes of people who I'd argue should have a case mounted as being Low Top Tier. Why Neko/Inu never got to fight to completion. Rather they had to switch around to conserve power and fight Jack. Weevil on the other hand straight bodied an former Admiral and has his strength praised/acknowledged by an Admiral. Historically this was done with other Yonko Top commanders (Jozu/Marco).

    Quote Originally Posted by FireAngeL View Post
    Oda hyped the fight between Zoro and Mihawk since 18 Years ago. It'd be hell lot of let down if it just doesn't happen. Mihawk was remembered by Whitebeard for his Rivalry with Shanks a Yonko now. Shanks' primary weapon of use is a Sword. Mihawk is the World's Greatest Swordman. Oda called Mihawk, WB and Shanks Legends.

    Shanks
    How many characters in the world have we run into with the title World Strongest? By admission having the title puts you in a stratosphere above the rest. At the time of answering that question the more recurring (Insert Title)-Greatest figures were Old WB - Mihawk. It is the mere inclusion of Shanks in such spheres that signals his status. Mihawk was used to hype Shanks. As in he used to fight the current WSS and their fights were not mere stomps but went to equilibrium and were the rave of the GL. It wasn't until he lost his arm which was the topic of conversation that it ceased. Shanks has shown from his introduction that titles, wealth aren't his interest but he was put in the same bubble as WSS.

    The way I see it.

    Its the same as Rodger and WB. The latter went to greater heights and fame due to the PK title but living in his shadow as a presence was WB. In data books and various mediums Shanks is often described a top swordsman second to Mihawk. However, we learnt that there is more to his arsenal than sword play. Additionally the fight with Cracker has shown haki plays a great level in swordsmanship. Shanks was Mihawk's peer 12 years ago. Right now his peers are/were Kaido - MUM - Old WB - Blackbeard. For the last 12 years he fought to stake his claim alongside without coming on the losing end. Why is it that a person with HH is revered compared to one without? Mihawk > Shanks in swordsmanship but in terms of overall power I doubt it. Shanks HH was hyped alongside Old WB and his swordsmanship alongside Mihawk. Talk about a true savage.

    To finish off I think there is an interesting dichotomy of Shanks/Mihawk. They are in some ways the people who inspired/guided the two recurring faces of the era. The PK and his FM. I think the opposing lives they live will be carried out to the very end. How does Luffy prove he has got a crew better than Shanks or Zoro prove his swordsmanship is top tier caliber? Beat their mentor or someone powerful ebough to beat them. Zoro has always wanted the 'title of that man' not to fight Mihawk. Mihawk said he would wait for him at the summit. Question is what happens when he reaches there and there's someone else. He still wants the title of that man
    Last edited by Bambino; Sep 4th '16 at 11:30 AM.


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  7. #18967

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    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Luffy is possibly taking Akainu.
    But do you honstely believe that Zoro last fight will be someone else than Mihawk(or whoever defeat him)?
    I used to think that Zoro would fight Mihawk in the war against the WG. My thought process changed with the potential elimination of the Warlord system. I do not see Mihawk being there in the fight EoS fight; and, I do not see Zoro saying I am not going to be there to fight with you guys because of my own ambitions.

    Do you have a scenario where Mihawk will be there and he's not a warlord?

    There's him punching Aokiji. Both fighting. Aokiji freezing Jozu while he is distracted. Jozu defeated. a little space between each.

    None of the parties were hal-assing the war. If he did not deal with Jozu until he was distracted it's because he could not.
    Only two panels were shown, iirc. Jozu hits Aokiji and tells WB to go ahead, next thing we see is him being defeated. We fill in the blank, we do not know if the fight was intense or how long it lasted. Aokiji could have been giving Jozu the Sabo treatment.

    It's not like they hurt him either. Kizaru seemed to have assess he was too much trouble for conventional mean and used a combo of surprise, tag-teaming and seastone. Pretty sure that take care of everyone.
    Marco was not going to go down easy because of his defensive capabilities; but his offense was not going to do a thing to them. Marco's fight is like Zoro's and Pica's fight, he can draw it out for a while but no chance too win.


    I would say big rather than tremendous.
    Semantics. Question is when will Luffy be in the gap between Top 3 commanders and Admirals?


  8. #18968
    Ace of Diamonds The Pirate Prince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redeyes View Post
    Semantics. Question is when will Luffy be in the gap between Top 3 commanders and Admirals?
    Maybe that gap isn't as big as you think? Let's look at it this way. Luffy is currently struggling against a yonko top3, yet he is supposed to fight Kaido in the next arc


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pirate Prince View Post
    Maybe that gap isn't as big as you think? Let's look at it this way. Luffy is currently struggling against a yonko top3, yet he is supposed to fight Kaido in the next arc
    Using the only Top 3 commanders as measuring sticks, the gap is as big as I think. Luffy either grows at an astonishing rate or Kaido gets weakened somehow (i.e. Doffy style).


  10. #18970
    Ace of Diamonds The Pirate Prince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redeyes View Post
    Using the only Top 3 commanders as measuring sticks, the gap is as big as I think. Luffy either grows at an astonishing rate or Kaido gets weakened somehow (i.e. Doffy style).
    How? He just created a mode that has a 10 or 20minutes timelimit .Considering the build up currently being around the control of gear4(which has a timelimit), in a singular arc, it's not likely that he'd overcome that control, let alone creating a new mode, yet that mode still in progression is already struggling against a yonko commander. Obviously the gap can't be that huge since Kaido will most likely fight that mode too


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